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Thread: Prince Of Wales Pub - Pembroke Place, Crown Street

  1. #1
    Newbie Michael O'Neil's Avatar
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    Default Prince Of Wales Pub - Pembroke Place, Crown Street

    Hi everyone - I'm new to the forum and was told to try here by Ged Fagan after seeing his Inner City Living site. I've been trying to find images of 3 premises for ages - I scour all the local history books at Waterstones, Borders, have been to central library, city engineers office, the Echo, etc and each time I seem to get close but not close enough.

    The premises in question are:

    The Prince of Wales Pub.
    This has been variously listed as 126 Pembroke Place or it's junction with Crown Street East, 17a West Derby Street or 1 Dalton Street and was cleared when the hospital was built. The 1908 Edwardian Directory which is available shows 2 pubs on the SE and SW corner of this junction but the actual listing finishes at the end of Pembroke Place. Does anyone remember this pub?

    3, 3a and 5 Queen Street.
    Should be courts off Old Hall Street running down to the river direction.

    80 Old Hall Street.
    Would have been the River Plate Fresh Meat Co or the British & Argentine Meat Co between 1910 -1915. It was business premises of my family who were living at Queen Street. Freddy O'Connor's pub book vol 1 shows The Beehive at 74 Old Hall Street with 72 and 76 visible either side. No 80 appears to have been the 2nd building in the next block (towards Leeds Road) that was between Virginia and Rigby Streets.

    Is there an Indiana Jones out there?


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    PS Whilst I'm really dotting i's and crossing t's with my Liverpool research - if anyone needs help with US research, I'd be more than willing to help. My paternal ancestor came to Liverpool from New York City around 1904 whilst working in the transportation of meat and I have a lot of research experience in New York and Ohio. Lots of links, picture sites, census info, etc.

  2. #2
    PhilipG
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    There was another Prince of Wales Pub at London Road/Moss Street.
    The building is still there.
    My 1936 directory shows that the POW at West Derby Street/Dalton Street is one building on the corner of those streets.
    126 Pembroke Place was a grocer's.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 07-09-2008 at 09:03 AM.

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    Newbie Michael O'Neil's Avatar
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    Hi Phil,

    As I said it was variously listed at those addresses - this info has come from the indexes of the license holders. Other info seems to suggest that premises were re-numbered from time to time as roads changed or houses were built, demolished, etc. Obviously the position couldn't change so I've never been too worried about the different addresses.

    As for the 'other' Prince of Wales pubs you touched upon a sore point there. My uncle Tommy swore blind that there were 2 pubs of that name nearby - Moss Street and London Road - I believe both are still standing. None of these though are in the right location. It did cause endless arguments.

    Incidentally do you know when this area got demolished - was it all in one go or was it bit by bit?

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Hiya Michael. Glad you found your way here. I think the London Road and Moss Street Prince of Wales will be one and the same as it's on the bend and had entrances in each street. I forgot to look in my pub on every corner books so will do tonight for the Pembroke Place one but not every pub is in them.

    The Hospital was built in the mid 60s so suppose the area was cleared just prior to that. The bottom end of prescot st/Daulby st/Boundary Lane was not cleared until 1970.
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    Senior Member robbo176's Avatar
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    Hiya Michael
    1911 directory shows the address as 17a West Derby St & 1 Dalton St,licencee Edward Gent
    1938 directory the address is as 1911,licencee was Ernest Wm. Greenough
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    Newbie Michael O'Neil's Avatar
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    Thanks Ged and Robbo for the replies.

    I've gone through my info at home and have the following timeline:

    Mrs Mary O'Neil (my G Grandmother) had the following addresses:

    Up until 1915 she was living at 80 Old Hall Street.
    Between 1916 and 1923 the Prince of Wales had Albert Stokes as licencee - he was Mary's brother-in-law.
    In 1916 Mary is forced to go and live with her sister at "17a West Derby Street, off Pembroke Place." This is how she addresses her letters to her aunts in New York city of which I have copies from a probate package. She uses this address from 1916 to 1920.
    In 1923, Mrs M. O'Neil is herself listed as the licencee of the Prince of Wales (Higsons Brewery) - she only holds the licence though for a year until end of 1924 after which she moves to other premises. It is this year that the address shows (I have in this order): 1 Dalton Street, 126 Pembroke Place, 17a West Derby Street.
    1295 licencee is William Davies.
    1926-1929 licencee is Robert Banks.

    I stopped my research there as it appears family connection had finished - so my interest is between 1916 to 1924.

    My Grandfather remembers growing up in the pub, learning the bar trade, playing the piano, taking savings to the bank AND... that "bloody noisy sign" squeaking and creaking in the wind outside his bedroom window!

    I know it may be pushing it to find a picture of the pub during that era but any picture of the pub would be the next best thing - hence my post.

    Incidentally I remember when they were building the hospital - coming down London Road on the old Crosville buses - to a young kid it seemed MASSIVE, seemed to take AGES to build and it always looked MESSY. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that they are planning to knock it all down and build another one! Wonder if more Prince of Wales will be lost if/when they do?

  7. #7
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Hiya Michael. Had a look in those pub books last night and it appears there was another Prince of Wales on Moss st (apart from the one on the corner of Moss st/London rd) - the other being being on the corner of Moss st and Kempston st but the one you're after is not mentioned and so no photo sorry.

    As it may have only been demolished for the building of the hospital it is possible it is yet to turn up as i've found many in just the last year from various sources. I know you've tried the records office, I take it you looked up the 3 streets mentioned in the address then?
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    Newbie Michael O'Neil's Avatar
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    Hello again folks.

    I dug out Paul Bolger's Edwardian A-Z (pt 2) last night and have attached a scan (with highlights) where I think the Prince of Wales was. I am of the opinion that it was the one on the north of the junction.

    Puzzling though is the Dalton Street address because the map doesn't show a pub on it's corner with West Derby Street. The pubs I've highlighted could reasonably have been either Pembroke Place or West Derby Street during their time but Dalton Street?

    Given that the OS maps are 1908, then the pub could possibly have been built between then and at the latest 1916, or simply that it moved to another premises at the next block and took it's name with it.

    Does anyone know whether the library has the Kelly's Directories for these periods or how often were they produced? Paul Bolger's book only has the listings for the principal routes and as I said earlier it stops at the junction of Pembroke Place, Elizabeth Street and Boundary Place. Just my luck!

    Hope Paul Bolger doesn't mind my scanning in the map for this discussion.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #9
    PhilipG
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    The library have directories for each year of the period you're interested in.
    Paul Bolger's maps must have taken him hours to produce, but they're only simplified versions of the OS maps, which the library has.
    Go to the Records Office on the fourth floor of Central Library and first ask to see the 1950s OS 50 inch map, which not only shows the individual buildings, but shows the street numbers.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 07-11-2008 at 09:38 AM.

  10. #10
    Newbie rigliverpool's Avatar
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    Default Crown Street / Pembroke Place

    Pub located at Crown Street / Pembroke place was "The Royal William" , demolished in the late 80's I think.

  11. #11
    Newbie Michael O'Neil's Avatar
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    Default Prince of Wales

    Wow a lead - thanks for that

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    Yes the The Royal William was on the corner of Crown Street, I was born in number 38 Crown Street 66 years ago. At the age of 15 we had to move out for demolision, it was a sad day when the area had to go.

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