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Thread: Toxteth District

  1. #31
    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways
    L8? Is it? L8, L17, L15 and L18 all make up Toxteth. Toxteth.net give the actual boundaries of Toxteth. Penny Lane forms the border at the top and half way down is full inside Toxteth both sides.

    Dingle is in Toxteth, so is Granby, St. Micheals, Sefton Park, Princes, & Greenbank Parks, and parts of Otterspool.
    L15 is Wavertree where I live.

    Greenbank is Mossley Hill. Sefton is part Aigburth and part Mossley Hill.


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  2. #32
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max
    L15 is Wavertree where I live.

    Greenbank is Mossley Hill. Sefton is part Aigburth and part Mossley Hill.

    St Micheals Aigburth.
    Totally and utterly wrong. See:
    http://www.toxteth.net

    Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.

  3. #33
    Too old to suffer sweetpatooti's Avatar
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    I remember rioting kicking off in St Paul's in Bristol well before Toxteth. I was around at the time and was actually "rioted in" to a pub in Park Road and could not get out until the early hours of the morning (I was gutted). The rioting did spread to other areas of Liverpool 8 (as we all called it then) not just Granby. The out-of-town police came with a bit of an attitude and were banging riot shields and making racist comments. It was not a happy time but to be honest we were all cheesed off anyway in 1981 - I had been unemployed for a year by that time (yes, I know - with all my talent). I think it was a symptom of a more deep-seated discontent - not just among the black community. If people have nothing to lose - no stake in their community - then they will not think-twice about destroying it. I heard it compared to "distressed birds detroying their own nests" by some poncey southern journo. Young black and mixed race lads that I knew suffered from being labeled a rioter by the police (even if they weren't). A couple of lads I knew were wrongfully arrested coming out of a pub and later got compensation from the police - there was quite a bit of panic about.

    But - we did get the lovely Garden Festival out of it.!!!

  4. #34
    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    That's correct Sweetpatooti.

    I knew a lot of black friends, and it's true that the black lads were often unfairly targeted by police.

    The riots were not just about that tho' - 'cos lots of white people were involved too. (I think it was mostly the whites who did the looting - thay were coming down from other areas to grab what they could)

    I can remember being in a house on the Falkner estate (not there now) ... and we all had to sit with the lights out while a mob was milling about outside.
    We could hear glass smashing and shouting ... it was pretty scary.
    We were scared that the front windows were going to come in on us.

    I stayed away from L8 afterwards until it was all over !! Ha!

    I remember seeing the devastation and the aftermath. Half of Lodge lane was gone ! The Rialto was a smouldering heap.
    I had a friend who lived off Lodge lane at that time. She had been away on holiday abroad when the riot took place and she didn't know anything about it. When she returned from her hols she got the shock of her life to find the lane looking like a war zone !!!

  5. #35
    Too old to suffer sweetpatooti's Avatar
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    Yes you're right - people were coming into Liverpool 8 on busses from other areas to check out what was going on. The two lads who were arrested were actually white. It was like the ripples in a pond and spread out with copycat riots in other parts of the city. BUT it was not the first in the country and I think it has not shaken off the stigma in the same way as St Pauls in Bristol and Brixton has - Toxteth = riots to most people inside and outside of Liverpool. I do not live there now, but my chap's family do and I have still got lots of mates there.

    A point to note - these things kick off in the summer when it is hot - not many riots in the snow in winter - in fact once the weather broke and it started raining the rioting fizzled out. Damage done by then though.

  6. #36
    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly, the rioting spread outwards - it spread part of the way down Smithdown rd. Also, sporadic rioting broke out in areas like Croxteth, Stockbridge Village (Cantril Farm, as it was known then) - and I can't recall which other districts - but there were definately other incidents.

    Where I live in Anfield, nothing happened here that I know of. Anfield didn't have any of the problems then that it has today.
    If the rioting took place now, I'm sure most of the Scalls around here would jump on the bandwagon.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpatooti
    I remember rioting kicking off in St Paul's in Bristol well before Toxteth. I was around at the time and was actually "rioted in" to a pub in Park Road and could not get out until the early hours of the morning (I was gutted). The rioting did spread to other areas of Liverpool 8 (as we all called it then) not just Granby. The out-of-town police came with a bit of an attitude and were banging riot shields and making racist comments.
    They soon dropped the attitude when they saw what was dished out to the Liverpool police. A friend of mine from Newcastle had a brother who was in charge of the Newcastle police sent over. They were expecting a hostile reception, but were shocked when people were clapping them on the way in. They soon realised the problem was the Liverpool police and would not go on the front line in Parli with them. They did tell other police forces to behave themselves so as not to get the population against them. People knew them because of the slightly different uniforms and would offer them tea, but not to the Liverpool police.

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    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    That's interesting Waterways.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindylou
    That's interesting Waterways.
    This copper from Newcastle told his brother that "the Geordies were too stupid to riot". There were no riots in the North East, which was more deprived than Liverpool. He said "look what the government is doing for them now". After the government promised to put money into Toxteth (well Liverpool 8 before the TV said it was Toxteth - people will copy anything if it is on the telly).

  10. #40
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    Newcastle was more deprived than Liverpool in 1981 ?


    Liverpool had Police bussed in from all over the North, not just Geordieland. And Toxteth was not a 'Black Riot'.

    Suss laws..heheh!!

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKoE
    Newcastle was more deprived than Liverpool in 1981 ?
    Yep. If there was any differnce there wasn't much.

    Liverpool had Police bussed in from all over the North, not just Geordieland. And Toxteth was not a 'Black Riot'.
    Suss laws..heheh!!
    They came from everywhere. Some were reluctant to send police fearing their own towns and cities would blow up too.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways
    Yep. If there was any differnce there wasn't much.
    Ok you claimed it... now provide us with the stats and facts.



    They came from everywhere. Some were reluctant to send police fearing their own towns and cities would blow up too.
    No they came from the north of England... Birmingham and many other cities and towns had their own problems to keep a lid on, remember ?

  13. #43
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKoE
    Ok you claimed it... now provide us with the stats and facts.
    As you are psuhing the point and appear to know it all, then you giev us them.

    No they came from the north of England... Birmingham and many other cities and towns had their own problems to keep a lid on, remember ?
    That is what I said.

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    MORE than 100 would-be entrepreneurs have benefited from a scheme in Toxteth to help get new businesses off the ground.

    BizFizz was set up two years ago under the supervision of urban regeneration charity, the Civic Trust. It is based in the Toxteth TV centre, which offers TV and video production training for young people.

    It employed a business coach, Stephan Nichols, to attempt to stimulate economic development from the bottom up by aiding the transformation of good business ideas into viable enterprises.

    This week, as Toxteth marked the 25 years since the riots left the area devastated, a special event to celebrate the success of the project was held at the Kuumba Imani Millennium in Princes Avenue.

    Now several of the people who have built successful businesses after receiving help want to give something back by offering their own support and expertise to the project.

    Ian Harvey, from the Civic Trust in Liverpool, said: "People living in areas like Toxteth face major barriers to starting their own business so Stephan will try to address the individual needs of each client and tailor the help accordingly.

    "What he does for one client might be completely different to what he does for another."

    Underpinning Mr Nichol's role is a board of established business people who attempt to help the would-be entrepreneurs take their ideas onto the next level.

    There are still major challenges faced by those who live and work in the area, 25 years on since the riots. Socio-economic inequality is still a significant barrier to upward mobilty among the local population.

    Following the riots Liverpool and Toxteth, in particular, became the test-bed for a series of initiatives that transformed the face of urban Britain. However when it comes to unemployment, deprivation, health and education Toxteth is still towards the bottom of the deprivation index.

    Initial funding for BizFizz will soon end but those behind the project hope new money can be found quickly.

    Paul Squires, BizFizz manager at the Civic Trust said: "BizFizz is an entirely local initiative designed to stimulate economic development by aiding good business ideas into viable enterprises."

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  15. #45
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    Waterways you made a claim with your fingers, now back it up with your mouth.

    And NO you did'nt, you said "they came from everywhere" ..



  16. #46
    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways
    Totally and utterly wrong. See:
    http://www.toxteth.net

    Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.
    No, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.

    Paul's maps aren't done very well, hard to find the locations.
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

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    Leroy Cooper, Artist and Photographer

    Photographs of Liverpool and artwork by the man whose arrest sparked the Toxteth riots.


    On 3rd July 1981 the arrest of Leroy Cooper on Selborne Street brought out an angry crowd of locals.

    In the fracas that followed three police officers were injured. The following night full scale rioting broke out in Toxteth. In the days that followed hundreds of police officers were injured and CS gas was deployed for the first time on mainland Britain.


    Gun Play (c) Leroy Cooper


    Leroy Cooper admits that after his arrest it would have been easy for him to become just another local thug, or to follow the same path in to criminality as Curtis Warren. He says that given the economic and social situation in Liverpool at the time he could have easily have chosen to follow this road. Instead he was inspired to pursue a career in the arts.

    He appeared as a performance poet on several TV documentaries and dabbled in DJ-ing. As a graffiti artist he took to painting street signs in Toxteth red, yellow and green, the colour of Rastafarian culture. He called it an Urban Installation.

    View Leroy Coopers Photos >

    He also took photographs. Lots of them. For twenty two years Leroy Cooper has taken pictures of Liverpool as well as travelling abroad on what he calls ‘photographic missions’ to other cities.

    View Leory Coopers Art >

    His collection now numbers over 150,000 images and offers a glimpse of his life in Liverpool since the mid 1980’s.

    Leroy’s photographs of life through the 1980’s and 90’s chronicle what he calls ‘A Secret Life of Liverpool’.
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

    All server & domain costs are covered by myself & kind donations of individuals.

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  18. #48
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max
    No, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.

    Paul's maps aren't done very well, hard to find the locations.
    Nope. Toxeth is anything inside the ancient Toxteth Park. The maps are excellent. They are interactive. Click on the arrows and pictures come up. Click on the green borders and the next map cell comes up.

    The exact boudary is there.

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    Senior Member Howie's Avatar
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    Cash crisis threat to race unit
    Jul 6 2006
    TWENTY FIVE YEARS ON - TOXTETH RIOTS REMEMBERED: Race relations are still delicate, as Mike Chapple discovers
    Daily Post



    A FRONTLINE organisation tackling racial problems in Liverpool faces collapse due to a lack of funding.

    Formed in the aftermath of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, the Merseyside Racial Harassment Prevention Unit says a lack of financial support, especially from the local authorities and police who depend on its services, has led to the situation.

    Edward Murphy, director of the charity Liverpool Network for Change which oversees the unit's work, claims the crisis is bitterly ironic considering it coincides with one of the worst periods for Liverpool's black and ethnic communities since the disturbances in Toxteth.

    More...

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    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways
    Nope. Toxeth is anything inside the ancient Toxteth Park. The maps are excellent. They are interactive. Click on the arrows and pictures come up. Click on the green borders and the next map cell comes up.

    The exact boudary is there.
    His map index is too small to find the area quickly.

    His maps have something called Toxteth dock now?

    Toxteth is only L8 now.
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

  21. #51
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max
    His map index is too small to find the area quickly.
    I don't find any problems with it.

    His maps have something called Toxteth dock now?
    Yep. The map is from 1906. Toxteth Dock still exists if you excavate. The name Toxteth Dock still exists. There has been two Toxteth Docks - all this is to go into the site. He also goes into Toxteth history - Toxteth has largely changed twice in my lifetime and is still changing. The site is far from complete and will be 10 times what it is now when fully in place and will always be changing and being added to as time moves on. If you have something constructive to give, a piece on history, photos (not personal snaps of people, but could be, say a street party for say the 1966 world cup win) and the likes, Paul will be grateful.

    If you don't like parts of the site, tell Paul as at times he is too close to it to see aspects that may confuse others. If you can add value and be constructive instead of whinging then contribute. You will be most welcome.

    I have contributed much to it and corrected many inaccuracies. There is much work to do on the dock and shipbuilding history of Toxteth (a number of American Confederate raiders were built in Toxteth, and the last lowering of the Confederate flag was mid river between Toxteth and Tranmere by CSS Shenandoah surrendering to HMS Donegal. All this is world history not just local. Have a look at the piece on the Mersey Forge and the Horsfall Gun.

    Toxteth.net is the most comprehensive web site on any district of any town or city in the world, and it will be far larger than what it is.

    Toxteth is only L8 now.
    In your world yes.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-07-2006 at 10:54 AM.

  22. #52
    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    No in the modern world.
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

  23. #53
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max
    No in the modern world.
    You are from Wavetree and what you thought was a part of Wavertree is actually Toxteth. In fact the city has signs saying Toxteth at various point (one is half way down Penny Lane), which are about right in most cases. Toxteth is well Toxteth. Either it is or it isn't - in your mind the borders are elastic to suit your perception. See toxeth.net for the border - they are the red dotted lines on the map.

    I am dropping then point with you as you a lost case.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-07-2006 at 10:18 PM.

  24. #54
    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways
    You are from Wavetree and why you thought was Wavertree is actually Toxteth. In fact the city has signs saying Toxteth at various point (one is half way down Penny Lane), which are about right in most cases. Toxteth is well Toxteth. Either it is or it isn't - in your mind the borders are elastic to suit your perception. See toxeth.net for the border - they are the red dotted lines on the map.

    I am dropping then point with you as you a lost case.
    In these Modern times, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.

    One part of the map thinks Smithdown and some of L7 is.

    It borders my street as Toxteth too, no way. My area is no doubt Wavertree.

    I am never a lost case.People use that as an excuse when someone refuses to agree with them.

    Most of the pubs on there are Wavertree.
    Last edited by Max; 07-07-2006 at 02:33 PM.
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

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    Senior Member robbo176's Avatar
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    I used to live off Beaumont St at the time of the riots,
    we used to sneak out of the house & watch the riots or watch it from my bedroom window if we got caught
    I remember my dad & mum coming back home after a night out covered in blood they had been in a taxi but the driver would only go as far as Grove St when they got out a gang jumped the driver almost killing him my dad then helped him & managed to get him to safety
    I also remember going to see a fire at myrtle gardens when a gang pushed cars at the firemen who tried to escape by climbing over the corrigated iron surrounding the flats

    Mandy

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    Communities at the centre of new Toxteth
    Jul 7 2006
    Continuing our week-long series on the 25th anniversary of the Toxteth Riots, David Higgerson meets one of the men tasked with turning the area around
    Daily Post



    ASK a regeneration expert in Manchester whether the bomb which ripped through the city in 1996 turned out to a be a turning point, and they wince.

    Many want to say - and indeed some do - but it goes against the grain to say acts of terrorism can be good for the place in which they were planted.

    So asking Max Steinberg, a Liverpudlian through and through, whether, in hindsight, the Toxteth riots in 1981 had any positive effect for the city, and he's in a similar position.

    Yet his answer is surprisingly candid: "What I think it showed was that there were real problems which needed to be addressed."

    "Those problems manifested themselves in a certain way, which the Government of the time had to do something about."

    More...

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbo176
    I used to live off Beaumont St at the time of the riots,
    we used to sneak out of the house & watch the riots or watch it from my bedroom window if we got caught
    I remember my dad & mum coming back home after a night out covered in blood they had been in a taxi but the driver would only go as far as Grove St when they got out a gang jumped the driver almost killing him my dad then helped him & managed to get him to safety
    I also remember going to see a fire at myrtle gardens when a gang pushed cars at the firemen who tried to escape by climbing over the corrigated iron surrounding the flats

    Mandy


    Oooof!!! ..

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howie
    "Those problems manifested themselves in a certain way, which the Government of the time had to do something about."
    He ain't kidding is he ?

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    does "waterways" happen to be the same person as John MK that was on the Skyscraper forum? i remember him instigating that same toxteth boundary argument on there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    does "waterways" happen to be the same person as John MK that was on the Skyscraper forum? i remember him instigating that same toxteth boundary argument on there?
    Yes, I think so.

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