Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[Waterways]

It's not very clear though - but very roughly what are we talking - 100 meters or a mile?

the street map shows the station.

[petromax]

It's not very clear though - but very roughly what are we talking - 100 meters or a mile?

It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a plan which showed at least a portion of track open to the air at the station.

[Waterways]

It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a plan which showed at least a portion of track open to the air at the station.

The station near next to the cinema at Keddleston St. The station was never open to the air, or any part of the tunnel. 100% underground.

[robt]

They will come. Wait.

An admission you talk out your arse just to get a reaction?

the street map shows the station.

If you know the answer, why not just tell me what I asked instead of telling me look at a map with no scale?

It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel.

Thankyou

[Waterways]

An admission you talk out your arse just to get a reaction?

Martin, you just haven't got it. No vision, no engineering acumen.

If you know the answer, why not just tell me what I asked instead of telling me look at a map with no scale?
Thankyou

Looking at the map and streets gives an idea - yes the station is a mile long.

[Ged]

From www.steamindex.com

The Liverpool dock railway - early developments. John C. Hughes.111-16.
First published in North Western Society for Industrial Archaeology and History No. 4. History of railway access to Liverpool Docks. Liverpool & Manchester Railway acquired access to King's Dock in 1833, to Brunswick Dock in 1835, to Salthouse Dock in 1843 and to Wapping Warehouse in 1856. The LNWR opened its Waterloo Goods Station in 1849 and in 1857 the railway was extended to the docks. The L&YR high level coal railway opened on 23 December 1852 and provided access to Wellington and Bramley Moore Docks. In September 1858 the LNWR reached Stanley. The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board was formed in 1858. There was a bad relationship between the railway companies and the MD&HB and this was fostered by the railways diverting traffic to their own docks. In the 1890s the rise of Southampton and the opening of the Manchester Ship Canal forced changes. Riverside Station was opened in 1895, but the CLC was not permitted to access it. Steam working was permitted on the dock lines, In 1905 the MD&HB introduced its own locomotives. There were further improvements in WW1. In 1927 Gladstone Dock was opened which gave much better rail access. Illus. of MD&HB locomotives (all 0-4-0ST): No. 22 (Avonside); No. 30 (Kerr Stuart) and No. 41 (ex-Woolwich Arsenal: Avonside/1918).

[skgogosfan]

That's a useful summary and a handy link-thanks!

Dave.

[Waterways]

Oritelad on his site:
http://www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk/
says:

This tunnel was apparently to be connected to the Merseyrail northern line back in the 1970s and a short connection was apparently made but they idea was scrapped, also tunnels run off the waterloo tunnel near the site of the old hodson station i heard that where made for run away train sidings, quite a few of the vents for this tunnel are long gone but there is one next to the nation express coach station that is still there today.

Many have been down the Waterloo Tunnel and none have reported any tunnelling work from the 1970s, or any tunnels off the main tunnel of any description.

Otitelad also says:

in 2007 it was decided by Merseyrail they will reopen the tunnel from Liverpool Central and then run through the Waterloo tunnel up to Edge Hill and onto the Canada Dock branch which will be reopened again for a new line for passengers again and all the old stations along that line will open up again this is all to happen by 2021.

I have read nothing that this notion is set in concrete.

The Canada Dock Branch line via Anfield and Kirkdale would form a loop from Moorfields, Edge Hill, Anfield, Kirkdale, Sandhills and back to Moorfields. Maybe a line from Hunts X, South Parkway to Moorfields around the north-end loop and back. It would need to be electrified from Edge Hill to Kirkdale.

Also this would mean a loop from South Parkway to Moorfields, up the Waterloo tunnel to Edge Hill and along the London main line to South Parkway. Again Hunts X could be the terminus.

[Ged]

Further to this piece re-stated above

''This tunnel was apparently to be connected to the Merseyrail northern line back in the 1970s and a short connection was apparently made but they idea was scrapped, also tunnels run off the waterloo tunnel near the site of the old hodson station i heard that where made for run away train sidings, quite a few of the vents for this tunnel are long gone but there is one next to the nation express coach station that is still there today.''

I think it has been confirmed either on this thread or the Hodson Street thread that there was no Hodson street station and having been down the tunnel myself in the late 1970s there are no new tunnels running of it. However, the Byrom Street cutting does widen out and it's here possibly where tracks/sidings were put for runaway trains that somebody else mentioned.

[Waterways]

It is pretty certain no full passenger station was ever at Hodson St, however that is beside the point that work started on the Waterloo tunnel to branch into Moorfields. As you have walked it Ged, you confirm no work started. Work did start on the branch from Central into the Wapping Tunnel, with tunnel headers at Central cut a number of feet.

The Northern Line tunnel above the Wapping tunnel at Gt George St was dropped into the top of the Wapping tunnel in the 1970s so the Northern line can gradually decline into Central low level. It looks as if trains can move under the tunnel above if the Wapping tunnel is used to take people to the Kings Dock Arena. The Wapping tunnel can be deepened at this point if headroom is a problem.



Consultation Document:
Consulation Document

The problem with Meseyrail extensions is that all they do is play about at the peripherals. Skemersdale is muted and isn't even in Merseyside. 100% focus should be on the city centres of Liverpool and Birkenhead and surrounding inner-city, using the tunnels.

The total lack of assessment in not considering the North End Outer Loop, via West Derby, and the city centre and Birkenhead tunnels shows how useless this organisation is.

What they said:

The possibility of running passenger trains
along the North Mersey and Bootle branches
was examined by the RUS and cannot
yet be recommended. However, future
development and regeneration could lead
to increased demand for such services. Any
such passenger services would need to be
implemented in a way that ensures current and
future freight demand can be accommodated.
There is also a possibility in the longer term
of using other infrastructure, including the
disused Wapping and Waterloo tunnels, to
provide new journey opportunities.

That's all.

[SKie]

Yeah, its a shame more isnt done about the wapping tunnel. Its obviously still viable as people have been down it only recently and it was in fine condition (and the arena makes it more so).

The only work that was done was the provision of the headers for a flying junction south of Liverpool Central. You can even see some of the grade separation on the three lines running from central in that above image.

[Waterways]

Yeah, its a shame more isnt done about the wapping tunnel. Its obviously still viable as people have been down it only recently and it was in fine condition (and the arena makes it more so).

The only work that was done was the provision of the headers for a flying junction south of Liverpool Central. You can even see some of the grade separation on the three lines running from central in that above image.

It is desirable to get the Northern Line into the Wapping Tunnel and into Edge Hill, as not doing so keeps the Meseyrail system back. Edge Hill is the core of the Liverpool rail system. Getting direct Merseyrail electrification to Edge Hill means it is easy to expand the Meseyrail system onto the extensive disused Liverpool rail infrastructure. It also means the City Line to St. Helens can be electrified and merged into the Mesreyrail metro system with direct access to Liverpool city centre.

Look at the Canada Dock branch Loop which is being considered for passenger re-use for the Liverpool FC stadium. This looks the most likely to be re-used.

The Canada Dock Branch line is currently a busy freight-only diesel line. The line into Edge Hill junction station would terminate at main line Lime Street using diesel trains.

An interchange would have to be placed in a cutting at Kirkdale to connections to the electrified Merseyrail Northern Line. The line would be limited being only from Kirkdale to Lime Street.

The line could be electrified and branch into the Northern Line at Kirkdale giving full direct access to Liverpool city centre and the south of the city to South Parkway. No connecting station then would need to be built in the cutting at Kirkdale.

If the line is electrified, dual pickup trains, third rail and overhead wires, could be used. The trains could run on the third rail Northern Line and from Kirkdale using overhead wires along the Canada Dock Branch line and into Lime Street. Using the main line Lime Street station is not ideal for a commuter train, as they take up valuable long haul train platforms.

If the 1970's scheme to branch into the Wapping Tunnel from Central station and re-commission the tunnel went ahead, then the Canada Dock branch would have direct access to the city centre, and the Wirral if need be from Edge Hill. A loop is then formed via Edge Hill and Kirkdale giving great flexibility of logical line creation and train routing. Also the Wapping Tunnel can give direct access to the Liverpool Arena at Kings Dock.

However, the most essential aspect is getting this up and running: Circle Line , as it will regenerate inner-city areas and give so much bang for buck.

Tell a mandarin in Whitehall that you need to spend millions on getting an old tunnel in operation, when passengers can change at Lime St low level rise to the upper level and get a diesel train (badged Merseyrail on the pseudo City Line) to St. Helens. And the same can happen with the Canada Dock Branch line when terminating at main line Lime St if that goes ahead. Well he is going to shake his head. No bang for buck.

Tell him that:

• A Circle Line created by one of the old tunnels, running through three inner-city districts, four if you count Byrom St
• Giving ease of expansion of the Merseyrail system out into the disused rail infrastructure from Edge Hill
• Creating a Loop via Waterloo Tunnel, Edge Hill, Mossley Hill to South Parkway and back via Brunswick and Central, using dual pickup trains and largely existing overhead wires and 3rd rail.

Then his eyes will light up. "regeneration of inner-city districts". They love that.
Also "cleaner environment" as dirty diesel trains are taken off the tracks.
A new line for minimal cost via Mossely Hill Big bang for buck

[SKie]

If the LFC Stadium station does go ahead, the line will certainly run from Bootle Oriel Road to Lime Street. The disused platform (and track) at Oriel Road was purposely left intact in the recent station refurb for this.

Though I doubt this would be 3rd rail, much more likely to be OHLE or left for diesel services to run on it. Depends on what Merseyrail do with a new order of trains, Hybrids or Dual Voltage (or ust DC if DaFT want to be ****y)

[marky]

Newspaper extract Sept. 2nd 1867 c)British Library
Byrom Street Station gets a brief mention.

[Ged]

Good find Marky.