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Thread: Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

  1. #316
    Senior Member Broliv's Avatar
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    <Cut because its boring and pointless>

    An Airport link is needed more than the outer City or inner cty link. Either way, we're talking about the workings of a scheme which may or may not go ahead. I agree that we need an Inner city link of some sort that is quick and sustainable, that we need an outer city link that is quick and sustainable. We also need a rail link directly to the airport.

    The Innter city link i feel would best be achieved with better management of the infrastructure that is already available. I.e. bus and rail. If people don't want to bus it to town, bus em to the nearest train station and give them a discount for using it. Opening Stations up at viable central hubs along the line. Yes we have existing inrastructure which is not used, but why spend lots of money re developing it when we can re-organise our existing infrstructure and bus routes to perform much better to meet the same end.

  2. #317
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broliv View Post
    An Airport link is needed more than the outer City or inner cty link.
    It is debatable that direct links to the airport benefit the city, or more outsiders. People go through the city and out via the airport. Like Terminal 5 at Heathrow. Many passenger are transit passenger and never leave Heathrow, yet the locals have to put up with the pollution of planes.

    Either way, we're talking about the workings of a scheme which may or may not go ahead. I agree that we need an Inner city link of some sort that is quick and sustainable, that we need an outer city link that is quick and sustainable. We also need a rail link directly to the airport.
    It is prioritising it that matters.

    The Innter city link i feel would best be achieved with better management of the infrastructure that is already available. I.e. bus and rail. If people don't want to bus it to town,
    Busses will not improve image and attract investment to inner cities, or move people around quickly or quickly give connections to other parts of the city - an underground station will. Look at what the Jubilee Line did in London.
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    how it once was?


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  3. #318
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Waterways;122145]It is debatable that direct links to the airport benefit the city, or more outsiders. QUOTE]

    I really think we need to dispense with any prejudices against 'outsiders'. It's outsiders we need to re-populate the city. It is outsiders we need to invest in the city to make it better for the 'insiders'. It is outsiders that we want to become insiders.

    After all more Liverpudlians have left than live in this city. Are they all outsiders? If you think the insiders can generate the kind of city you want then good luck because all will walk away. I thought we had learnt that making ourselves an island doesn't work. perhaps we should ask Derek Hatton?

    If you make it hard for outsiders to invest; if you make them unwelcome, they will go elsewhere and take their money with them. It doesn't grow on trees.

    References other posts:

    there is no need to dig or tunnel to be actually level with the platforms at St James Street. In many ways it would be better if it were not level because of the capacity or width at platform level. It is none the less still possible and at reasonable cost - somewhat less than other options;

    Yes, Parliament Street is only one stop from 'cathedral' but I wouldn't walk it if I had the choice;

    and thirdly, the 'charabanc' trade at King's Dock is part of an overall offer, bringing investment into the city.

    Profit is not a dirty word - it's the only word that makes prosperity and a good standard of life possible - vide the history of Liverpool.

    Look at how successful the rejuvenated dock systems of Cape Town (V&A Watewrfront), Sydney (Darling Harbour) and Baltimore (Inner Harbor) are. They have blazed a trail for Liverpool to follow. Of course Liverpool should have been the leader but it is by far bigger an opportunity than these three examples and at least we can learn from their mistakes

  4. #319
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broliv View Post
    I think A station at St James Place/Parliment Street/Great George Street would go down well in years to come. Seeing as the site has been ear marked to be re-developed as a mixed use development and done by Urban splash and within walking distance to Cains, the Cathedral, the Quarter which is currently being developed, the Buddleia Building and a little walk further to the arena. Would Increase the access to that part of town on the edge of Toxteth. The cutting is already in place, All it needs is to develop the platforms, access bridge/s and car parking fa****ies which can be done by using currently unused wasteland.
    There is more residential development coming on the Toxteth side of Parliament Street. There is Chinatown which will grow south. As you say there is Urban Splash and 700 new homes on Great George Street ad there is the Cathedral. It will increase conectivity for both places to live, our own leisure/ nights out/ access to a growing cultrue quarter. It might be moved a little further in from the existng location (some of the existing platforms have been compromised and are in any event are quite narrow). It's a great idea.

  5. #320
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Gatacre station:
    http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...re/index.shtml

    Belle Vale Bridge is still there. This gives the impression the track bed may be reused. If it was gone forever the bridge would be demolished. They requires periodic structural surveys and maintenance. Why would they foot this expence for a needless bridge?
    The council don't own the bridge - sustrans do.

  6. #321
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    It is debatable that direct links to the airport benefit the city, or more outsiders.
    I really think we need to dispense with any prejudices against 'outsiders'.
    No prejudice. People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city - It may be to Peel the owners. Manchester based. We need a direct airport link for sure. The priority in rail should be the centre and the inner city, which it can make most impact for least money.

    and thirdly, the 'charabanc' trade at King's Dock is part of an overall offer, bringing investment into the city.
    It is, but what great benefit is it to the people of the city? Historic docks filled in to make char-banc park for outside companies to make money from. The local councilor that covered Kings Dock was totally against the scheme, wanting residential and leisure development that benefit the people and get them living around the quays. I agreed with him.

    The money making part, the arena could have been on the ranshakle businesses on the land side of the Kings/Queens Docks

    Look at how successful the rejuvenated dock systems of Cape Town (V&A Watewrfront), Sydney (Darling Harbour) and Baltimore (Inner Harbor) are. They have blazed a trail for Liverpool to follow.
    Liverpool should follow Amsterdam and Hamburg, where people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities. Toxteth and Harrington Docks are how not to use redundant docks.

    Of course Liverpool should have been the leader but it is by far bigger an opportunity than these three examples and at least we can learn from their mistakes
    Or learn from the successes, which don't do what Liverpool is doing. Liverpool just does what Peel want to do. They keep referring to Central Docks. What docks? There are few docks left there now. Like Kings Dock just large areas of filled-in water space. And there will be fewer when they fill in West Waterloo.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  7. #322
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    No prejudice. People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city - It may be to Peel the owners. Manchester based. We need a direct airport link for sure. The priority in rail should be the centre and the inner city, which it can make most impact for least money. .
    Where will people go from Liverpool airport? It is no hub. It's a destination. If you make your city competitive and available, you will attract business. let's say you have many millions to spend on the relocation of a major international bank bring in many more millions of secondary investment and making any city you go to a better place to be. Which would you choose - Liverpool afraid of outsiders or Manchester with the welcome mat out? QED



    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    It is, but what great benefit is it to the people of the city? Historic docks filled in to make char-banc park for outside companies to make money from. The local councilor that covered Kings Dock was totally against the scheme, wanting residential and leisure development that benefit the people and get them living around the quays. I agreed with him.

    The money making part, the arena could have been on the ranshakle businesses on the land side of the Kings/Queens Docks


    Liverpool should follow Amsterdam and Hamburg, where people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities. Toxteth and Harrington Docks are how not to use redundant docks. .
    If you haven't been or know of the revitalised docks in Sydney, Cape Town or Baltimore or any other of these stellar success stories - just say so. In all of these places and yes including Amsterdam and Hamburg (on a smaller scale) 'people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities'.



    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Or learn from the successes, which don't do what Liverpool is doing. Liverpool just does what Peel want to do. They keep referring to Central Docks. What docks? There are few docks left there now. Like Kings Dock just large areas of filled-in water space. And there will be fewer when they fill in West Waterloo.
    Liverpool was a basket-case before 1999. Everything that has been achieved thus far within the city boundaries has been achieved without Peel. Peel is a great opportunity that is at the start of the road. But being outsiders, we should turn them away and let them invest in anywhere other than here because they are 'Manchester-based'. Perhaps you should learn from Manchester's successes and embrace the outsider.

  8. #323
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Where will people go from Liverpool airport? It is no hub. It's a destination. If you make your city competitive and available, you will attract business. let's say you have many millions to spend on the relocation of a major international bank bring in many more millions of secondary investment and making any city you go to a better place to be. Which would you choose - Liverpool afraid of outsiders or Manchester with the welcome mat out? QED
    True that an airport with many destinations will attract business. But right now most passenger leaving and arriving at JLA don't stop and spend in he city - they are people from outside the city. So, any immediate rail priority should be to regenerate the city, not make matters better for outsiders. Manchester was described as an airport with a city attached - we don't want that.

    If you haven't been or know of the revitalised docks in Sydney, Cape Town or Baltimore or any other of these stellar success stories - just say so. In all of these places and yes including Amsterdam and Hamburg (on a smaller scale) 'people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities'.
    I know all about these places. Amsterdam is not small. Have you been there?

    Liverpool was a basket-case before 1999. Everything that has been achieved thus far within the city boundaries has been achieved without Peel. Peel is a great opportunity that is at the start of the road. But being outsiders, we should turn them away and let them invest in anywhere other than here because they are 'Manchester-based'. Perhaps you should learn from Manchester's successes and embrace the outsider.
    My point is clear. Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage. I was banned of the Liverpool Echo forum for daring to oppose Peels wanting to fill in West Waterloo Dock. They appear to have the council and local media in their pocket. Money they make is taken out of the city.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  9. #324
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ...But right now most passenger leaving and arriving at JLA don't stop and spend in he city - they are people from outside the city. ..
    Why do you think they come here? For their health?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ...I know all about these places. Amsterdam is not small. Have you been there?..
    Yes, and Cape Town and Sydney. I have worked in the latter two. I know them rather well. I know the relative size of Liverpool rather well too which was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ...My point is clear. Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage. I was banned of the Liverpool Echo forum for daring to oppose Peels wanting to fill in West Waterloo Dock. They appear to have the council and local media in their pocket. Money they make is taken out of the city.
    You are very clear.

    You do not appreciate that the pound in your pocket is worth exactly the same as the pound in Peel's pocket.

    I imagine you were banned for a bit more than voicing your opinion - maybe there are just a few people who disagree with you and the way in which you put your opinions over.

    Maybe if someone told you what to do with your property you would get upset.

    The council and local media support investment in the city. Yes, Peel take their money home wherever that may be, just like you. But on the way they bring jobs and investment, pay rates and development contributions, create opportunities for secondary investment, pay taxes and increase the profile of the city making our city a more propsperous place - and you?

  10. #325
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    ...and you?
    On reflection, I'd rather not know, thanks; and I hope someone else can bring this back on-topic

  11. #326
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Why do you think they come here? For their health?
    I clearly made the point they do not come here - they go straight to the airport. So a direct line from Wrexham will sail though the city to JLA.

    Yes, and Cape Town and Sydney. I have worked in the latter two. I know them rather well. I know the relative size of Liverpool rather well too which was my point.
    I know Cape Town - I was married there.

    You do not appreciate that the pound in your pocket is worth exactly the same as the pound in Peel's pocket.
    And their pounds are taken away form the city.

    I imagine you were banned for a bit more than voicing your opinion - maybe there are just a few people who disagree with you and the way in which you put your opinions over.
    After 4 posts I never had time put across much of an opinion at all. Ever thought of your offensive manner? And how it would be better to get the odd point before responding.

    I know exactly what Peel may bring to the party. However they want to rip us off for all they can get. As I said "Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage." We have to call the shots, not them. The tail wags the dog.
    Last edited by Waterways; 03-30-2008 at 04:44 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  12. #327
    Senior Member Broliv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    [i]"Peel only care about Peel and making money.

    Thats busisness.

    By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.

    Thats Politics

    Peel should be welcomed with open arms, after all they just want to make as much money as they can. They'll bring jobs, other busisnesses who will bring more jobs. More Graduates (which the city is desperate for its economy) will need to stay in the city as there will be an availablity in the job market. We'd be able to afford the circle lines from the increased revenue both in council tax and fares as well as the rates from busisnesses.

    What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed. In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.

    If Labour win the next election they're going to have a nice big headache in how to solve this issue.

    And yes we're way off topic. Perhaps this should all go in a seperate thread.

  13. #328
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broliv View Post
    Thats busisness.

    By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.

    Thats Politics

    Peel should be welcomed with open arms, after all they just want to make as much money as they can. They'll bring jobs, other busisnesses who will bring more jobs. More Graduates (which the city is desperate for its economy) will need to stay in the city as there will be an availablity in the job market. We'd be able to afford the circle lines from the increased revenue both in council tax and fares as well as the rates from busisnesses.

    What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed. In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.

    If Labour win the next election they're going to have a nice big headache in how to solve this issue.

    And yes we're way off topic. Perhaps this should all go in a seperate thread.

    That's probably the most sensible thing said on this thread.

  14. #329
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broliv View Post
    By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.
    As long as they do contribute. Peel have to be controlled, otherwise they will ruin the city. That is done having as many firm policies in place for them to work inside.

    What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed.
    The council is not doing that at all. They have no firm policy on water spaces. Peel want to charge companies to fill in the docks and then make a killing on the newly created land. They care nothing of history or heritage.

    In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.
    I fully agree. Clarence Dock is historically important, as 1.3 million starving Irish came through the port via this dock.

    Below: Original Clarence Dock:


    Below: As it is filed in today. The outline of the granite quays can be seen.


    Quite easy to excavate. The pictures shows the level of infilling (land by stealth). Some people are on about how an Irish connection should be in the city, then this could be around an excavated Clarence Dock. The Irish Dock.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  15. #330

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    Yep, that is definitely off-topic.

    Quick word on JLA Airport - more sweeping assumptions that "People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city"

    True, I don't stop off in town before I use the airport but what about the people who use the airport to come and visit/stay in Liverpool? Surely a better rail link for these people can be only a positive thing for the city - raising its profile etc.

    And yes, a new station for Speke - everyone's a winner.


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