Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[robt]

Yes, make the place accessible to national, regional and local services. As I said before surely, it must be of benefit to the City.

I don't see the advantage of one over the other, other than the massive expense of building a new mainline station and tunneling to it (I don't think the existing tunnel is quad+ track)

Am I missing something - is it not just shifting a station from one part of the city to another a bit further out of the centre?

[jc_everton]

WW just assumed that us suburbanites shun public transport for the car - which is just a sweeping statement AND that we only use the city to go to work!!!! We obviously do not have very active lives, in the leafy suburbs!!

Ridiculous.

Firstly, the bus system in the suburbs is poor, journey times are too long, services infrequent, unreliable and uncomfortable. If you don't live near a train station you must park and ride. If the car park is full you must drive. Or leave your car on the side of a road - not an attractive proposition. Also, if your office or uni/other is not near a station, there is another incentive to drive.
It is your attitude that ensures us suburbanites will continue to drive to the city because you just assume we all want to drive and we don't care about public transport.

And as for your remark about us only using the city for work.... how narrow-minded is that???

Maybe you're right... Burscough has far better shops, restaurants, bars, clubs etc etc etc!!! So why would I want to go to Liverpool?!

Again, ridiculous.

Your counter-argument will include the word 'needs'. So in the inner city, do they not have basic food stores and supermarkets? If you lived near County Road or Smithdown Road, would you really have to go to the city to buy your 'needs'? People in the inner cities use the city for exactly the same reasons as suburbanites, so why do you keep separating the two? You have no consideration of the word 'integration'.

Trams will not fill the gaps of the suburbs, the lines would be too long and unnecessary. Trams are for the city. Therefore, open the NMB and Bootle Branch ASAP, as well as the Burscough Curves and Gateacre extension. Fill the suburban gaps with rail, fill the city centre gaps with some sort of innovative system - overhead, metro, trams, whatever - the key is getting people in (and out) and when they are there they should expect a nice rapid system for them. I say pedestrianise Ranelagh St altogether and create a tram station outside of Central, whisking people off in all sorts of directions. Good stuff.

Speaking of Gateacre, I don't know why people have been talking about the old CLC Line - that is long gone, except for the curve to Gateacre where we have the potential to create a large car park for park and ride. Anywhere north of there is too close to houses and it's a well used cycle path. It's like the old 'Get Rid of the Garage at Dingle Tunnel and Sod the Workers' attitude. As much as it'd be great it's not an over-riding priority. However, I do agree that the areas around that line, from Gateacre through West Derby, right up to Lydiate could do with a train service.

[Waterways]

I don't see the advantage of one over the other, other than the massive expense of building a new mainline station and tunneling to it (I don't think the existing tunnel is quad+ track)

Am I missing something - is it not just shifting a station from one part of the city to another a bit further out of the centre?

At one time the second mainline station was at Brunswick at the corner of Northumberland St, just along the Dock Rd. Then they bored the tunnel to Central Stn taking over and the station was closed down. The station building was there until the mid to late 1970s. It reopened with the new recent Brunswick station - not exactly in the same position.

[petromax]

If this hanging railway can't integrate into the existing system, it will be mainly a tourist railway. Nice to have, however, that is a lot of expense, that can be better used elsewhere to project the city forwards.

Yes, it will have a big tourist use linking the attractions of the waterfront (Stanley Dock, Pier Head, Albert/ Kings) together. It will also link offices to hotels to conference centre.

Suitable passenger transfers from Merseyrail would be the new station at Stanley Dock ('Vauxhall') and at St James St ('Cathedral') because there are both at elevated levels - Vauxhall on the viaduct and Cathedral up the hill.

[Waterways]

WW just assumed that us suburbanites shun public transport for the car

Most do.

And as for your remark about us only using the city for work.... how narrow-minded is that???

True most only use the centre for work or for the odd shopping trip.

Maybe you're right... Burscough has far better shops, restaurants, bars, clubs etc etc etc!!! So why would I want to go to Liverpool?!

Burscough? I haven't been around there for years. Las Vegas eat your heart out

Your counter-argument will include the word 'needs'. So in the inner city, do they not have basic food stores and supermarkets? If you lived near County Road or Smithdown Road, would you really have to go to the city to buy your 'needs'? People in the inner cities use the city for exactly the same reasons as suburbanites, so why do you keep separating the two? You have no consideration of the word 'integration'.

Proximity is the key. My mother would occasionally, just "pop into town", those relative in West Derby went occasionally as it was an effort to get there.

Trams will not fill the gaps of the suburbs, the lines would be too long and unnecessary.

That is exactly what they were used for. The boulevards were designwide wide reservations to take them.

Speaking of Gateacre, I don't know why people have been talking about the old CLC Line - that is long gone, except for the curve to Gateacre where we have the potential to create a large car park for park and ride.

The track bed is still there.

Anywhere north of there is too close to houses and it's a well used cycle path. It's like the old 'Get Rid of the Garage at Dingle Tunnel and Sod the Workers' attitude.

The workers and a small business can move . It is not the Jaguar factory.

The CLC track bed? Well it can go underground

Bringing the line back into use, the benefits to the local community have to be assessed against those who will back onto the railway. The track beds were deliberately not built upon, in case of re-use. The people who bought there must have known that.

As much as it'd be great it's not an over-riding priority. However, I do agree that the areas around that line, from Gateacre through West Derby, right up to Lydiate could do with a train service.

The 1970s idea was to get to Edge Hill at Broad Green, which would have been extensive works. Then a southern loop was formed using the Wapping Tunnel and then branch into the Northern Line tunnel and through Central Stn and back to Hunts X, Gatacre, etc.

The Gatacre Line closing was a big thing in the 1970s. It was to close then public pressure stopped it, then it closed - on temporary basis I recall (maybe why the track bed was left). It was always in the Echo. If the line was temporarily taken out of action, ten anyone buying house backing onto the trackbed would have known a rail line could be re-introduced as a search would bring that up. So, they would have no gripe if a the line was re-used.

[Waterways]

Yes, it will have a big tourist use linking the attractions of the waterfront (Stanley Dock, Pier Head, Albert/ Kings) together. It will also link offices to hotels to conference centre.

Suitable passenger transfers from Merseyrail would be the new station at Stanley Dock ('Vauxhall') and at St James St ('Cathedral') because there are both at elevated levels - Vauxhall on the viaduct and Cathedral up the hill.

The "Cathedral" station is still there and is "underground". Well in a cutting. It would be difficult to merge the two to change in the same station. Brunswick would be better - dropping the train to platform level.

Nice to have but hardly a priority for money allocation.

[petromax]

...Trams will not fill the gaps of the suburbs, ...Fill the suburban gaps with rail, fill the city centre gaps with some sort of innovative system - overhead, metro, trams, whatever...Speaking of Gateacre, I don't know why people have been talking about the old CLC Line - that is long gone, the areas around that line, from Gateacre through West Derby, right up to Lydiate could do with a train service.

The tram network proposes single lines into the suburbs, splitting into multiple lines in the inner wards (Anfield, Everton, Picton...) that surround the centre. You are right that it is a long, long journey on a tram even from Huyton (let alone Kirkby) to the centre, where as the train is light-speed in comparison.

I can see your point that with more lines in the suburbs with more stations, there would be more parking available for parking at the station and travel into the centre would be so much quicker and so it would be used more.

People are talking about the CLC because although it would ultimately form a complete loop into the city (but a long way around for some) it would also be a short journey service between different lines. So if you want to go from the Hunt's Cross to Huyton say, you need not go all the way into the centre to do it by rail. Also there is a lack of capacity on the existing rail alignments for these journeys and as you say Gateacre etc need a train service.

The whole alignment is still there apart from a short section in the north

[petromax]

The "Cathedral" station is still there and is "underground". Well in a cutting. It would be difficult to merge the two to change in the same station. Brunswick would be better - dropping the train to platform level.

Nice to have but hardly a priority for money allocation.

Assuming that you look at the levels, it would be understood that that cutting is a lot higher than the bottom of Parliament Street because it is up the hill; running level (or even up hill) would bring you into St James Street on the level and would bring the Anglican Cathedral into the tourist loop.

A connection at Brunswick is useful but for different reasons (going on to the south even the airport)

Presenting the city in a world market place as a great place to visit and an attractive and a competitive, convenient business location is the city's top priority without which none of these systems will see the light of day and is thus more than a nice-to-have.

[Waterways]

Assuming that you look at the levels, it would be understood that that cutting is a lot higher than the bottom of Parliament Street because it is up the hill; running level (or even up hill) would bring you into St James Street on the level and would bring the Anglican Cathedral into the tourist loop.

That is expensive tunelling and opening out the cutting.

A connection at Brunswick is useful but for different reasons (going on to the south even the airport)

Brunswick is only one station away from Parliament St.

Presenting the city in a world market place as a great place to visit and an attractive and a competitive, convenient business location is the city's top priority without which none of these systems will see the light of day and is thus more than a nice-to-have.

Image is very important. That is why the image of a comprehensive underground system which promotes regeneration of inner city areas is important. Lodge Lane is an embarrassment to the City - it looks like a war zone. An underground station there will greatly assist in quickly eradicating that blight.

An overhead railway will not be feasible until the centre and docks area become more populated. The Brunswick Quay Tower would have assisted here (and would have been built by now, in the city did not foolishly turn it down), The King Edward Tower will assist too - if CABE don't stop it. Commercial building should be restricted in the docks waters as this will not generate that much traffic. Dense populations do.

[jc_everton]

As you say yourself, quality public transport systems attract people to live and work so why not get an overhead by the docks put in place immediately and watch the population increase... which is something you have touched on many a time. I don't see no harm at all in putting one in without 'waiting to see what happens', the city needs to be bolder and more positive.

Gateacre... my othe gripe with it is journey time. Just look at where it is on a map and look how the CLC line has the potential to take it north and then west on to the St Helens line, then compare this to the CLC line going south, then west, then north... I honestly don't believe it would be much quicker than a car trip - the key would be to cut-and-cover that line (meaning the cycle path will remain) and link in with Broadgreen. But to go south, west, north and then west to Lime St would be a bit silly and even if it went via Brunswick it wouldn't be much quicker.

Also, consideration must be given to the CLC physically connecting with the St Helens line - the motorway is slap bang in the middle of where the two lines meet but I think I'm right in saying there is a bit of green space to play around with so yea, maybe there is hope...

[jc_everton]

I had to laugh at the Lodge Lane 'war zone' reference. That area is just one of many areas that are on its knees in the city - have you not seen Gilmoss/Croxteth? Parts of Kirkdale and Bootle? Loads of Toxteth... parts of Netherton... Broadway/Norris Green... Anfield... Kenny...Huyton.... Speke... the list goes on... I don't understand your persistent references to Lodge Lane. Public transport will not rescue these places single-handedly - the people need to learn some respect and discipline - instil DISCIPLINE into the kids - this has to be priority no.1 before them areas can even think about progressing - they will only take absue the public transport system anyway. I've touched on armed police before but some lefty dismissed it. The scum need to be taught some respect - if shots need to be fired so be it - as you say, some parts resemble a war zone already. Hugging a hoodie.... makes me sick. What a pratt Cameron is.

[Waterways]

As you say yourself, quality public transport systems attract people to live and work so why not get an overhead by the docks put in place immediately and watch the population increase... which is something you have touched on many a time. I don't see no harm at all in putting one in without 'waiting to see what happens', the city needs to be bolder and more positive.

An overhead is a luxury and will not be popular with people elsewhere who will shout they are being neglected so big business can make money out of he waterfront and docks - that is what is happening at Kings Dock - little of that will benefit many local people. We should be living around those quays, not using them for a chara-banc parks.

Gateacre... my othe gripe with it is journey time. Just look at where it is on a map and look how the CLC line has the potential to take it north and then west on to the St Helens line, then compare this to the CLC line going south, then west, then north...

It is a loop It would serve the outer areas as well as getting to the centre via two directions.

I honestly don't believe it would be much quicker than a car trip - the key would be to cut-and-cover that line (meaning the cycle path will remain) and link in with Broadgreen.

At great expense and would it be worth it? I would rather cut and cover from Dingle to Edge Hill and expand a true underground system. The link from Dingle to Edge Hill could be met by tram/trains at a push.

[Waterways]

Gatacre station:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...re/index.shtml

Belle Vale Bridge is still there. This gives the impression the track bed may be reused. If it was gone forever the bridge would be demolished. They requires periodic structural surveys and maintenance. Why would they foot this expence for a needless bridge?

[jc_everton]

Because it is a popular cycling/walking path - part of the Trans-Pennine Trail. It wouldn't set the council back by millions of pounds a year.

[Broliv]

I think A station at St James Place/Parliment Street/Great George Street would go down well in years to come. Seeing as the site has been ear marked to be re-developed as a mixed use development and done by Urban splash and within walking distance to Cains, the Cathedral, the Quarter which is currently being developed, the Buddleia Building and a little walk further to the arena. Would Increase the access to that part of town on the edge of Toxteth. The cutting is already in place, All it needs is to develop the platforms, access bridge/s and car parking fa****ies which can be done by using currently unused wasteland.