Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[mikewturner]

Great map Marky.

Is the water tank that hut pictured earlier?

Was the deceased unloading the coke from the trains (there was a lot of industry around there) or unloading the trains from the engine to be removed by another engine - unclear in the article.

Hi Ged

The hut appears to be of standard LMS/BR design so post dates the water tank by many years.

Regards

Mike

[mikewturner]

Hi Guys

There has been some very useful and interesting views posted here following the find of the article in the Liverpool Mercury.

So if I may be so bold to summarise the evidence we have so far...

The 1864 and 1890 maps both show sidings here
The 1864 map also shows a water tank and implies an installation between the rails
The cutting is at the foot of two inclines
The articles mentions Byrom Street station and states that a locomotive was moving wagons to and from the station (but we believe engines did not work the tunnel till 1895?)
Passenger services did not start until 1895 with no intermediate passenger stations on the line
In later years we have a plan that shows runaway catch points
We have what appears to be a very small access door of some sort - too small for frequent use??

To add to the above it can be shown that there was an engine house at Waterloo Bank Head (Edge Hill) associated with the rope. I have not seen mention of one at waterloo end? Illogical though it might seem was their another engine at Byrom Street at the foot of the incline???? Coke+water=steam???? This is pure conjecture and I am even doubtfull myself! Did the rope from Edge Hill end here and was the section on to the docks worked by locomotive?

By the way in an earlier message someone mentioned they didn't think coke was used for steam engines. Actually in the earlier years it was and you often read reports of coking plants for the loco's.

To me the way forward is as follows

We check other contemporary newspapers for further info
We check the accident reports which are available in the NRM and are published in the parliamentary papers (Liverpool Central Library hold a set on micro cards but they are an absolute b###er to read!)
Joseph Hesketh's death certificate may hold further clues but its a long shot - from a quick check on Ancestry.co.uk he appears to have been born in Manchester
What we don't do is imply fact when it is only conjecture

Regards

Mike

[HollyBlack]

... The interesting thing to note are the line from the watertank and the rectangle in the track. Could denote a water crane ...

Almost certainly I would think.

If cable haulage was used in the Waterloo tunnel but not in the Victoria tunnel it makes perfect sense to keep a little "shunting" engine at the bottom (and to provide for watering it) after hauling a down (Westbound) train and waiting for one going the other way (presumably with empties since the port was used more for export than import).
A cable-hauled up train would "bring" a cable that could be attached to a down train. One reason to station men there, to attach cables (darned dangerous job with the technology of the day I would think). Just think of how much energy is stored up in half a mile of stretched cable should it break loose!

However, sometimes there would be two trains in one direction consecutively, and when that happened there would be a need to run a light engine through the Waterloo tunnel just to carry the cable. It has to be an engine so it can travel without any cable attached and can also move itself out of the way onto the siding.

Of course, sometimes there could be enough traffic to use both Waterloo tunnel lines simultaneously and different working again is needed. I'm not sure quite how that would work, with need for loco runaround etc..

Once you keep a little engine at the bottom you need to keep workers there and to feed and water it. Coke could be used because it was cheap and the engine isn't going to go anywhere in which range on a single load of fuel has any importance.

So I think we can be reasonably sure there were a number of workers at the bottom. But there's still no evidence there was ever any passenger service. In fact it probably would have got in the way of efficient goods working.

[Waterways]

Illogical though it might seem was their another engine at Byrom Street at the foot of the incline???? Coke+water=steam???? This is pure conjecture and I am even doubtfull myself!

There is a large side tunnel at the cutting.

• Coke,
• water,
• cutting at the bottom of two inclines,
• Side tunnel in the cutting

Could mean a steam winding-engine in the side tunnel, as was the case at Edge Hill Cuttings at the Wapping Tunnel head.

The more I look at it the more I am swayed that way.

BTW, the approx size of the water tank can be assessed by the scale of the map.

[ChrisO]

I don't know if this will work.
The link below is a shot taken in 2009 from approximately where the letter 'W' of 'Water Tank' is on Marky's map. the shot is from the Google street map wotsit

Link: <http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.411928,-2.983711&spn=0,359.99717&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53. 412015,-2.983716&panoid=oJ09QsQTXRkk7T1Y5WBYUA&cbp=12,83.4 4,,0,3.15>

[Waterways]

The cutting.

[Waterways]

The cutting: The tunnel to Edge Hill can be seen. The side tunnel to the bottom right (unseen) in the cutting, above is the water tank location - in someone's side garden now. To me this is where a winding-engine may have been located. The bridge is what is left of Hodson St.

[mikewturner]

Hi Guys

I have found a reference to an accident report dated 10/07/1872 for Liverpool Byrom Street. Whilst this is highly unlikely to be the Joseph Hesketh event due to the date it may well give details of the installation at this place. They often do..... NRM library here I come.

Mike

[vic synex]

There's also an accident listed on the Railways Archive for 4 July 1899 involving a runaway train, not much info I'm afraid.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eve...p?eventID=6130

[mikewturner]

There's also an accident listed on the Railways Archive for 4 July 1899 involving a runaway train, not much info I'm afraid.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eve...p?eventID=6130

Hi

I have a copy of that accident report.... It was a runaway caused by a broken coupling between the 7th and 8th wagon of a train of 23 loaded wagons and a brake van. The train was travelling up the incline from Waterloo to Edge Hill and the runaway rear portion was derailed on the catch points at Byrom Street and unfortunately 2 of the 3 men travelling in the van were killed. The third was trapped under the debris for 2 hours before being released and suffered a broken arm and other injuries.

A train of empty wagons coming down the incline from Edge Hill ran in to the derailed train and 2 or 3 wagons also became derailed.

The report mentions the fact that the catch points had been installed in 1895 and that locomotives regularly worked trains through the tunnel from the autumn of 1894.

Regards

Mike

[Ged]

Some pics from today.


This is the new outer skin wall, the original inner wall still exists as seen later.
















.

[Waterways]

Something tells me they have kept the part of the cutting near Byrom St free of development in case a station is built. The RUS mentioned that the lines from Kirkdale to Canada Dock (the original run through the short tunnel) should be kept of any development in case it is needed to run another line into the docks.

[Waterways]

From Oritelad's site. Looking towards Byrom St. The side tunnel to the right is under the water tank. This to me may have been an engine-winding location, to pull the trains by ropes from the cutting to Waterloo Goods Stn.



This side tunnel marked, approx' position in red, may have been the winding engine for the trains from the cutting to Waterloo. Or a storage area/area for men, etc. If a winding engine, it would have been redundant in 1895. But a small hut was built under Hodson St bridge later (in green). Why build a hut near tracks when it could be in the safety of the side tunnel? Runaway trains could demolish it.



What was built at ground level on the top of the side tunnel besides the water tank? It looks like open land. If a steam engine was in the side tunnel, then a smoke stack of some sort would be there. None appears to be indicated on the map, which does not mean it was not there. Cartographers are known to omit detail and make mistakes. What property did the railway company own around the cutting?

[Waterways]

1885 map. Not even the cutting is shown:

[vic synex]

The hut pictured in the cutting is a later addition, it's a typical British Railways type structure, I'd date it mid 50's to mid 60's. Apart from being a cabin for Train Crews it could simply have been a mess room for the Permanent-Way gangs who patrolled the line.

One thing that does intrigue me is the placing of a winding engine at the foot of two downward inclines, what's the point? The engine would surely be better placed at the Edge Hill end of the tunnel? The gradient towards Waterloo Goods is not as severe so did it need one at all?