Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[Waterways]

Byrom St was a runnaway catch and went to 4 line in width. "Station"? Well Oritelad, and others, has been saying it was a station for rail workers. The wagons were to be unloaded at Byrom St? Well the "station" was in a tunnel cutting. "he was about to remove three wagon loaded with coke from a siding to Byrom-Steet station". The siding appears not to be in Byrom St, but either at Waterloo goods Yard or Edge Hill.

The report is a little vague. The accuracy of newspaper reports was always in question in those days. But a mention to Byrom St station.

Still a nice find.

[oritelad]

see told you that station was there noone believed me if only there was more info on it and photos

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...odson/fdfv.jpg

if we look at this photo we can clearly see thanks to all the rubbish since the tunnels closed in the 1970s got cleared resantly that there is space both sides where platforms could of been or maybe even room for a siding i did hear there was a siding here

i also think the station was renamed as i heard it was named hodson street station named after the now closed and blocked road that runs over the cutting

the top left of this photo might of been where the stairs leading down where still i can find no evidence of this

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...tledhodson.jpg

[Waterways]

see told you that station was there noone believed me if only there was more info on it and photos

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...odson/fdfv.jpg

Oritelad, is that trees growing "inside" the tunnel?



Oritelad, no one doubted that there was station of some kind there. It is just that there is no evidence of it being a passenger station. Why would a passenger station be there and not one at the Waterloo Goods Yard? It doesn't make sense. Also the tracks at Edge Hill coming out of the tunnel do not run towards Edge Hill platforms.

Look at posts 11 and 21 on this thread. It explains the runaway at the cutting and drawings.

Mike Turners Post No. 21:

From a transport plan for the future point of view it makes no odds but from an accurate historical record it is very important.

So far only one person has stated that a station existed here and has not presented any facts to back this up. I am sorry but memories are not good enough. What is required is evidence from primary sources eg plans, maps, minute books, photographs etc. So far these all point to no station at this site.

Further to my previous posting re the actual reason for the wide cutting at Hodson Street here is the gradient diagram for the line taken from a BR signalling plan.



And here is an extract from the same plan showing the catch points intended to derail trains running away on the steep gradients.



Edge Hill (Waterloo Tunnel Mouth) is to the left and Waterloo Goods to the right. The signal is Waterloo Goods Distant shown at 975 yards from the signal box and the concentric circles on posts numbered 32 and 36 are gongs (bells) worked from the signal box to give instructions to shunting trains. The run-off from the bottom line is shown with a sand drag and because it's between the running lines they must be set at a wider interval and therefore the cutting is wider.

Regards

Mike Turner

[Ged]

see told you that station was there no one believed me if only there was more info on it and photos

There is still no evidence that a station was there. Where would the access be, those sheer walls that are there now are the same from when it was built, there is no evidence of a platform or stairway though it has been reasoned it was a catching area for runaway trains with sidings, hence it's width at that point. The idea of the terminus being at Waterloo docks and Edge Hill was for cargo not passengers.

[Waterways]

At Byrom St, how long is the wide cutting of 4 tracks wide?

[mikewturner]

see told you that station was there noone believed me if only there was more info on it and photos

snipped

Sorry still don't believe you. The newspaper cutting is a nice snippet but proves nothing on it's own. As others have said reports of this period are often quite inaccurate. I will however check the associated accident report on my next vist to the archives at the NRM.

You may or may not be aware that before a new railway can be brought in to use or an existing line converted from goods to passenger it needs to be inspected. This was undertaken by the board of trade which was a forerunner to todays railway inspectorate. The BoT reports are available at the PRO Kew under classification MT6.

MT6/713/17 dated 1895 refers to the report on the inspection of the goods lines from Edge Hill to Waterloo Goods Station being approved for the use of passenger trains. I have a copy in front of me as I type. No mention is made of any passenger stations other than Edge Hill and Riverside. No passenger trains would have been allowed on the line prior to approval being given and this requirement dates from the early days of the railways. The first letter in the file dated April 29th 1895 from the LNWR to the BoT states

"I am directed to give notice to the board of trade required by the act 5&6 victoria cap 55 of the intention of the LNWR co. to open for the public conveyance of passengers the lines between Edge Hill and Waterloo Liverpool...."

You have in the past stated that little evidence exists of Hodson Street station which implies some does. Please furnish said information to support your claims.

Regards

Mike Turner

[Ged]

oritelad, I have to applaud your interest in the railways and wish you luck in your endeavours as there are never too many people being interested in all of the city's large heritage and history but you realise we have to have facts so I too welcome Mike Turner's knowledge and expertise in this field and look forward to hearing of any finds he makes on this 'station' - or not.

[Waterways]

An inspection of the brickwork in the walls that surround the cutting may give an indication if there was ever an entrance to stairs leading down to the cutting for rail workers. There is a brick hut there - signals?. Did the men who used the hut walk up the tunnel from Waterloo or drop down stairs from Hodson St?

The cutting is wide and entailed men being there on a regular, if not daily basis.

I would love it to become a full passenger station

[ChrisO]

Just had a mooch around on the way back home from town-didn't have the camera-but it doesn't look, to my eye, as if there is any different coloured brickwork, mortar, repointing, or anything to suggest there was an entrance at street level. I'm in no fit state to climb the wall to look into the cutting to look for any signs.

[Ged]

I've been down there looking up and looked over the wall too though there was vegetation growing out of it and all around back then.

[oritelad]

i spent a lot of time on this tunnel finding out what i can an it is ture there is hardly any information on this hodson/byrom street station or images but from what i have learnt an seen there was a station there but maybe not for passangers even though i know people that have used it.

also it looks as if the cutting walls have been replaced so maybe the old entrance has long gone

no haha that is not trees in the tunnel that is the old closed hodson street bridge in the photo, yes it would be great to see a station here i would use it for one but look how long merseyrail spent on just upgrading sandhills station think we will have a long wait haha

[mikewturner]

i spent a lot of time on this tunnel finding out what i can an it is ture there is hardly any information on this hodson/byrom street station or images but from what i have learnt an seen there was a station there but maybe not for passangers even though i know people that have used it.

also it looks as if the cutting walls have been replaced so maybe the old entrance has long gone

no haha that is not trees in the tunnel that is the old closed hodson street bridge in the photo, yes it would be great to see a station here i would use it for one but look how long merseyrail spent on just upgrading sandhills station think we will have a long wait haha

Hi Oritelad

Yet again you say hardly any info which implies there is some. Please let us know what that info is!

I will be the first to hold my hand up and congratulate you on finding a long forgotten station but for now all evidence points to it not having existed.

The extract from the MT6 report I posted last night also blows holes in the idea of low level platforms at great howard street. It was impossible for passenger trains to run without the consent of the BoT and the LNWR did not request this until 1895.

Regards

Mike Turner

[Waterways]

Hi Oritelad

Yet again you say hardly any info which implies there is some. Please let us know what that info is!

I will be the first to hold my hand up and congratulate you on finding a long forgotten station but for now all evidence points to it not having existed.

The extract from the MT6 report I posted last night also blows holes in the idea of low level platforms at great howard street. It was impossible for passenger trains to run without the consent of the BoT and the LNWR did not request this until 1895.

Regards

Mike Turner

Mike, the point is "passenger" station. No one disputes that passengers did not use the cutting. The press report does state Byrom Street Station. The report was jumbled in it explanation of the events of the fatality, but the term "Byrom Street station" I'm pretty certain the reporter did not make up. It must have been a stop of some sort. It was a stop of some sort for occasional, or maybe daily, use. How did men get to the cutting? A hut is there. So it was a stop of some sort, as men were there. Did they hitch a ride on a train running through the tunnel? For safety reasons, I doubt they walked through an active dark tunnel to get to the cutting/station.

[HollyBlack]

What I found significant in the newspaper report is that three "waggons" of coke were to be unloaded there.

So for what purpose was this coke? Three waggons would presumably be perhaps 15 tons or 300 cwt bagfuls - enough to heat a smallish house (or hut or waiting room or perhaps more likely a signal box?) for an entire Winter easily.

Coke was not used to fuel steam locos, at least I don't think it was.

[Waterways]

What I found significant in the newspaper report is that three "waggons" of coke were to be unloaded there.

So for what purpose was this coke? Three waggons would presumably be perhaps 15 tons or 300 cwt bagfuls - enough to heat a smallish house (or hut or waiting room or perhaps more likely a signal box?) for an entire Winter easily.

Coke was not used to fuel steam locos, at least I don't think it was.

Holly, good point. I was mentally questioning whether the coke was for Byrom St. It is a fair sized cutting now it is cleared it is easy to see.

I always wondered why it was never used for passengers, as the location was ideal. I concluded because it was to be used primarily as a runaway, so no full station was ever built. These days, well from the 1890s onwards, having a station there is no problem.