Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[mikewturner]

Hi

When I first mentioned the possibility of a stationary engine at this place I did say it was pure conjecture and that I was doubtfull myself. To be honest I just don't believe they would build one in such an awkward place especially when the other end of the tunnel at Waterloo is an open space. Also all the other engines in the area are at the top of the incline ie Edge Hill Waterloo Bank Head, Wapping Bank Head and Edge Hill Station for Lime Street.

Looking at the photos of the cutout it appears to me that the base of this is well above track level - might be how I'm reading the photos??

Regards

Mike

[vic synex]

Another map I found on this wonderful interweb thing, shows the cutting between the two tunnels but no mention of any station or anything.

[HollyBlack]

Hi
When I first mentioned the possibility of a stationary engine at this place I did say it was pure conjecture and that I was doubtfull myself. To be honest I just don't believe they would build one in such an awkward place especially when the other end of the tunnel at Waterloo is an open space. ...

I know there is mention somewhere of the Waterloo tunnel being rope hauled until 1895 or so.

But it seems that there has always been confusion between the Waterloo tunnel and the Victoria tunnel. Perhaps VR was none too popular with the scouse lads who preferred to avoid using the word and referred to the tunnels as one.

Anyway, is it not a possibility that rope haulage was used for the run to Edge Hill but from the bottom of the cutting to Waterloo docks was loco hauled even from earlier times given the gentler gradient. In that case a shunter would be stationed at the bottom of the incline which seems to fit the track layout fairly well. And perhaps the side tunnel was merely a fuel (coke) bunker - it seems vaguely the right size to hold three "waggons" of coke as were to be delivered there according to the newspaper report.

[Waterways]

I know there is mention somewhere of the Waterloo tunnel being rope hauled until 1895 or so.

But it seems that there has always been confusion between the Waterloo tunnel and the Victoria tunnel. Perhaps VR was none too popular with the scouse lads who preferred to avoid using the word and referred to the tunnels as one.

Anyway, is it not a possibility that rope haulage was used for the run to Edge Hill but from the bottom of the cutting to Waterloo docks was loco hauled even from earlier times given the gentler gradient. In that case a shunter would be stationed at the bottom of the incline which seems to fit the track layout fairly well. And perhaps the side tunnel was merely a fuel (coke) bunker - it seems vaguely the right size to hold three "waggons" of coke as were to be delivered there according to the newspaper report.

That seems feasible. By 1846 when the tunnel opened locos were more powerful than 1829 when Wapping tunnels was opened. And the shorter Waterloo tunnel and shallower rake of would mean a shunter could take the trains from the cutting. The cutting is not actually at the lowest point of the two tunnels. The lowest point is further east towards Edge Hill. Any train unhitched from the rope naturally rolls back to Edge Hill giving a shunter loco driver light in the cutting to hitch up the train.

The much shorter tunnel is the Waterloo tunnel. I would think the term Waterloo Tunnel for both, as in effect they are all one tunnel, may have been because of the Waterloo Goods Depot. It would be natural to call the tunnel all one name.

From Oritelad's web site. The inside of the side tunnel does look rather black - maybe from coke storage. I think coke would have been used on any tunnel loco as it gives off less smoke than coal.

[HollyBlack]

... From Oritelad's web site. The inside of the side tunnel does look rather black - maybe from coke storage. I think coke would have been used on any tunnel loco as it gives off less smoke than coal.

Yes that photo looks blackened and exactly like what you would build as a coke bunker. To the side of, rather than directly beneath, the water tower is where you could water and shovel fuel into a loco both at the same time and the sidings layout fits.
So we can imagine a gang or perhaps four men in Victorian times, tending to an 0-4-0 loco, hitching and unhitching waggons to the rope haulage. And from the newspaper report they improvised a bit on moving wagons, especially in the sidings. We might speculate that the lethal pusher-prop was used to move the three waggons together to the bunker instead of one at a time over many hours using the loco each time.

Would the fatal coke be coming from Edge Hill or from the docks?

[Ged]

That tunnel can't be the waterloo tunnel, the arch isn't wide enough.

[Waterways]

That tunnel can't be the waterloo tunnel, the arch isn't wide enough.

I thought that and looked at other pictures and it doesn't look like the ones in the photos. But, is there two side tunnels? The tree in front gives the impression it is in the cutting.

[ChrisO]

Page 31 of Gordon Suggits book 'Lost Railways of Merseyside & Greater Manchester' mentions that Waterloo Tunnel was worked by a stationary engine (but doesn't mention the location). There is also no mention of any stations at Hodson/Fontenoy St.

[Waterways]

Page 31 of Gordon Suggits book 'Lost Railways of Merseyside & Greater Manchester' mentions that Waterloo Tunnel was worked by a stationary engine (but doesn't mention the location). There is also no mention of any stations at Hodson/Fontenoy St.

The winding-engine for the Victoria Tunnel (from Byrom St to Edge Hil) was at Edge Hill. I think the buildings are still there - well those that pulled the trains up from Lime St are and the two tunnels are next to each other.

Byrom St Cutting was a place essential in the transit of trains through the two tunnels - well one tunnel with two names.

[mikewturner]

The winding-engine for the Victoria Tunnel (from Byrom St to Edge Hil) was at Edge Hill. I think the buildings are still there - well those that pulled the trains up from Lime St are and the two tunnels are next to each other.

Byrom St Cutting was a place essential in the transit of trains through the two tunnels - well one tunnel with two names.

The winding engine for the Victoria Tunnel was definately at Edge Hill.

An article appeared in The Railway Magazine May-June 1942 on Cable Operation at Liverpool and London. This says that the Waterloo Tunnel was worked by locos to Byrom St. and the Victoria Tunnel to Edge Hill by rope until 16/02/1895 when the rope broke and was not repaired. (Thanks to Dave Pennington for the info).

I am certain we are looking at loco fueling and watering installation.

Regards

Mike

[Waterways]

The winding engine for the Victoria Tunnel was definately at Edge Hill.

An article appeared in The Railway Magazine May-June 1942 on Cable Operation at Liverpool and London. This says that the Waterloo Tunnel was worked by locos to Byrom St. and the Victoria Tunnel to Edge Hill by rope until 16/02/1895 when the rope broke and was not repaired. (Thanks to Dave Pennington for the info).

I am certain we are looking at loco fueling and watering installation.

.....and a cable hitching and unhitching point. Mike, it all fits. The water tank over the side tunnel, which would be for coke storage. Watering and fuelling all at one point.

It is inconceivable that there would not be direct access from the top of the cutting, as the bricked up door indicates.