Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[marky]

The article was from the Liverpool Mercury Sept. 2nd 1867. The nearest dated map I have is the 1864 Liverpool (Vauxhall) Reprint c)Alan Godfrey edition. Surveyed in 1848 and updated in 1864 to include new railways. The original large scale map may show more detail of the area, just 1 year before the line opened.
I presume the labels 'L' are lamps. There must be a reason for having a row down one side of the cutting. A Water Tank is shown very close to the cutting, any reason?

[Ged]

Great map Marky.

Is the water tank that hut pictured earlier?

Was the deceased unloading the coke from the trains (there was a lot of industry around there) or unloading the trains from the engine to be removed by another engine - unclear in the article.

[gregs dad]

Was the water tank for steam engines ?

[marky]

I read the article thus...that the driver was killed preparing to take loaded coke wagons 'TO' Byrom Street from a siding elsewhere (un-named). But the wording of the article is a bit unclear. Looks to me that he was killed during coupling-up the wagons to the engine. There's bound to be a fuller report, somewhere, for this accident.
The previous night he was engaged "REMOVING loaded wagons from Byrom Street"
This suggests to me that the cutting was being used as some sort of pick-up/drop-off point, but I know nothing about the inner workings of railways.

[Waterways]

Nice one Marky. Edge Hill is to the right, Waterloo Goods Stn to the left. It looks like a full siding to me, not a runaway - well not from Edge it is not.

Cable haulage continued through the Waterloo Tunnel until 1895 when it went over to locomotive haulage and the line was extended to a new passenger station, Riverside, near the pier head, The Wapping Tunnel went over to locomotive haulage the following year.

About the tunnels

If a train is hurtling down from Edge Hill, there is no way it can move into any sand trap. Looking at Mike Turner's drawing. The cutting is near the bottom of the incline in the tunnel. The tunnel drops from both ends. Any train running away will hit bottom and then run upwards and slow down, then run backwards down to Byrom St. Probably the reason the cutting was there, to retrieve any runaways. For this to occur the ropes would need to be detached in some manner and the brakes or operator disabled. The Wapping tunnel had brake vans put on some trains right up until the 1950/60s. I am not sure if brake vans were hitched from the start at Waterloo Tunnel.

As the tunnel ran down from both portals there must have been winding engine at both ends. The Cutting may have been the hitch up point. Roll down from any end, hitch up and get pulled up.

Look at the sidings, only big enough for one wagon on one. I assume this was to attach/detach brake vans to trains.

I am no expert in rail working either, but common sense indicates that this siding was well used and had something to do with the rope winding mechanisms.



The cutting is clearly a well used siding, that was used every day.

I doubt there was a platform there, but men had to access this siding and it would be feasible that a wooden staircase came down from the top at Hodson St. Oriteland's assertions are getting meatier.

The water tank? Maybe for the men to use for drinking/washing. No locos used the tunnel at this time, so no need for water for locos or fuel for locos. The tank looks like it is at ground level outside of the cutting. Water ran down into the cutting.

What about drains? Rain entered the cutting and it was near the bottom of dip in the tunnel. Hand pumps to take water out?

[Ged]

There was a small metal doorway and door cut into the city centre side of the wall surrounding the cutting - only about 4 feet tall, we used to laugh at it thinking was it for midgets or something, might be a pic of it somewhere. I'll look.

[Waterways]

Was the cutting used as a sand trap runaway after cable haulage was ceased and locos were used? After 1895, the function of the cutting would have changed.

[Ged]

You can see the small door and in fact a new piece of wall on the 3rd pic on post No. 34 on this thread.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...+street&page=4




.

[Waterways]

Ged, I can't actually see where you mean. But there is side tunnels in the cutting, which means they were used for storage, men, etc.

[vic synex]

I've spoken to an old hand Railwayman about the possibility of a station at Byrom street.
He seems to remember as a boy, the sidings in the cutting were used to stable an engine to bank (push from the back of the train) loaded trains up the inclines either end of the cutting. He said the brick hut was a cabin for the train crews to use inbetween banking duties and the water tower was a watering point for the steam engines that used it.

Still nothing definite but a bit more food for thought?

[Waterways]

I've spoken to an old hand Railwayman about the possibility of a station at Byrom street.
He seems to remember as a boy, the sidings in the cutting were used to stable an engine to bank (push from the back of the train) loaded trains up the inclines either end of the cutting. He said the brick hut was a cabin for the train crews to use in between banking duties and the water tower was a watering point for the steam engines that used it.

Still nothing definite but a bit more food for thought?

That sounds sensible, after 1895. However the water tank pre 1895 when cable was being used was clearly not for locos. A lager tank may have been fitted after 1895. The side tunnel may have been to house a cable haulage engine. If so, then the tank may have been for the steam engine.

Snappel walked that tunnel and took pictures. I can't find them.

[Ged]

Ged, I can't actually see where you mean. But there is side tunnels in the cutting, which means they were used for storage, men, etc.

Look at the 3rd pic on post 34 of the other thread ive linked.

Just below the bus and to the right, a small rusted metal door. Go right along to the right and there's brand new brickwork - this wall in part is now the end walls of the back gardens of the houses built there.

[Waterways]

Well spotted Ged. Clearly a door of some sort.

[mikewturner]

Mike, the point is "passenger" station. No one disputes that passengers did not use the cutting. The press report does state Byrom Street Station. The report was jumbled in it explanation of the events of the fatality, but the term "Byrom Street station" I'm pretty certain the reporter did not make up. It must have been a stop of some sort. It was a stop of some sort for occasional, or maybe daily, use. How did men get to the cutting? A hut is there. So it was a stop of some sort, as men were there. Did they hitch a ride on a train running through the tunnel? For safety reasons, I doubt they walked through an active dark tunnel to get to the cutting/station.

Hi Waterways

I agree completely the point is 'passenger' station. Problem is people are still implying it was regularly used as a stop off point yourself included. Dropping off say a signalman at his point of duty does not class that place as a station.

You are quite right that the report is very clear in its use of the term Byrom Street Station but for the sake of accuracy we should try our best to qualify this as goods station, loco station or whatever it turns out to be.

Regards

Mike

[mikewturner]

The article was from the Liverpool Mercury Sept. 2nd 1867. The nearest dated map I have is the 1864 Liverpool (Vauxhall) Reprint c)Alan Godfrey edition. Surveyed in 1848 and updated in 1864 to include new railways. The original large scale map may show more detail of the area, just 1 year before the line opened.
I presume the labels 'L' are lamps. There must be a reason for having a row down one side of the cutting. A Water Tank is shown very close to the cutting, any reason?

Excellent find Marky. The two sidings are also shown on the 1890 edition 1/500 map held in Liverpool Record Office but by then the watertank appears to have gone. The L's do indeed denote lamps.
The interesting thing to note are the line from the watertank and the rectangle in the track. Could denote a water crane and pit??
Regards

Mike