The Herbert Balmer thread.

[underworld]

Underworld,

Thank you for your message. George Skelly hated my grandpa as my mum has talked about him. Will his book be accurate and unbiased? You mention 'Bert's methods'. Why am I starting to get a sinking feeling? I do remember my granny and I loved her. She died when I was about five so my memories are few. She was also quite ill before she died. I wear her engagement ring - given to her by Bert - and like to think that she is watching over me!

I'm afraid George Skellys book is accurate and unbiased. There was another man called Lou Santageli who did some investigation of the Cameo Case for the appeal and found d amning evidence against Bert. You can also read the Appeal Jugement that Burkhilly suggests ;

Para 97
“The non-disclosure of Graham’s first statement, and to a lesser but cumulative extent the non-disclosure of Northam’s and Dickson’s statements, deprived Kelly and his lawyers of highly relevant material. Subject only to the fact that Miss Heilbron was plainly aware of the existence of at least some of the latter statements (and of the fact that the lending of the overcoat was not mentioned until 10 October), and thus subject to the possibility that the non-disclosures were simply part of a local culture, there is every sign that those non-disclosures, and particularly that of Graham’s statement, were due to deliberate concealment. Indeed, the lies of Graham and CI Balmer in relation to when they first saw one another in relation to the Cameo murders are a strong indication of the need for concealment. The similar lies in relation to the time when the Sunday meeting at the White Star was first revealed to CI Balmer suggest the same conclusion in respect to the statements of Northam and Dickson. Disclosure of the statements would have enabled Miss Heilbron to go further than she was able in attacking the credibility of all three principal witnesses for the Crown.”

Para 130
“For these reasons we considered that both convictions were unsafe, and we therefore allowed the appeals in the references concerning both Kelly and Connelly and quashed their convictions. As we intimated at the time of the hearing of these appeals, in the light of our decisions the Cameo murders remain an unsolved crime. If these appeals had happened timeously, fresh trials might have been held, if the Crown would have proceeded with them in the light of the new material, and these matters could have been subjected to the scrutiny of a new jury. As it is, that cannot happen. However, having considered that there was in these cases a breakdown in the due administration of justice and a failure to ensure a fair trial, we consider that the consequence was a miscarriage of justice, which must be deeply regretted.”


But then if it worries you, then dont read any of it at all because it is all bad news and there is more to come with the Cranbourne Road book.

If I can help in any positive way, then I will be only too pleased to.

[burkhilly]

Laura I can understand you wanting to know as much as possible about a grandpa you loved........but remember they were different times. There's no use saying to you not to read the books mentioned - because if it were me, I probably would. As Underworld says George Skelly's book about the Cameo Murders may be difficult for you to read, but be assured George Skelly is a man of integrity, as can be confirmed by Captain Kong (Brian).

Regardless of whether you read the books or not, remember Mr Balmer was your grandpa, who loved his family and showed a totally different side to his character to the one I've read about.

[underworld]

Here is some rare film footage of your Grandfather. Its on a film that is about 50 mins long and Bert speaks at 29mins 49 secs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/mersey/...?all=1&id=5183

[captain kong]

Laura Anne. " Thank you for your message. George Skelly hated my grandpa as my mum has talked about him. Will his book be accurate and unbiased? You mention 'Bert's methods'"....


Hi Laura Anne, I dont think George Skelly Hated your Grandad, Bert Balmer, he is just reporting the facts of the Cameo case and his involvment of other cases and his methods in "solving " those cases.
When Bert Balmer was out on the Street and in his office in his capacity of Chief Inspector he would obviously be a different man than when he was with his family.
Brian

[laura anne]

Thank you Underworld for clippings. Have actually seen them but thanks all the same. Will watch video footage tonight and let you know what I think. Think I remember my mum talking about a TV drama made about one of the cases my grandpa was involved in, but my mum didn't really react to it. Sometimes she was quite vague about things. Mmmmm....! I do remember Elsie Weston and she was a super lady. She died in the 1990's when she was in her 90's. She continued to live in West Kirby and was cared for by her nephew. Did you know that Bert used to write for the Liverpool Echo about cases he was involved in. This must have been when he retired. He also had his own horse and taught himself to ride as Liverpool had their own mounted police. Am still intrigued to know how you know so much. Also Chris 48, why are you researching and why did you set up the Balmer Thread?

[underworld]

Laura, we are not related in any way and I know so much because I have researced what little information there is on your grandfather. My interest comes from the Cameo case.

Your Grandfather wrote articles in the Liverpool Echo for 2 months beginning on the day he retired from the police which was the day before his 65th birthday (off the top of my head 21st Nov 1967). I have most of them and need to finish that bit of research off.

Bert was a horse rider. Ive seen photos of him on a horse. He was also keen on boxing and used to attend the Liverpool Stadium a lot to watch it.

Do you remember any of the cars that he owned?

Also, what was his connection with Ireland as he used to holiday there. He would always sail.

This is where Bert lived as a child - 65 Cairns Street, Toxteth with his siblings Tom, Mona, Eva and Lucy.

[laura anne]

Underworld,

Amazing photo! Thank you. Bert had a Rover 2000. Don't ask me what model but it was the 1970's type! Me and my brother would squeal with delight because he would start up the car and talk to it. "Come on girl, come on" he would say. He was just the most perfect grandfather. After that he had a Austin 1100, which my father drove after my grandpa died. It was a big bulky car - light blue. They did holiday in Ireland - why I don't know but I'll ask my mum. I'm seeing her next weekend - I'll be careful what I say. I don't want to upset her, so all questions will be broached with care. My grandpa loved the sea, probably because of his merchant navy days. His father, my great grandfather used to sail on the sailing ships. His name was Richard but everyone called him Dick - (much to my children's amusement)!! He would go on voyages for months on end and when he came home he would obviously be flush with money. He would return home and say to my great grandmother (Gertrude) "we're moving!" The whole family would then 'up-sticks' and move to more 'salubrious' housing. When the money started to run out, they would then return to more basic conditions. The house in Dunsden Road was full of pictures with ships.
Grandpa had a brother who died young, can't remember how. At 14 Bert was delivering bread in a cart before going to school. My mother is incredibly like her father, they got on very well. My mother lived in Anfield for the first 9 months of her life, can't remember road now but we drove through it but she couldn't remember the number. Then they moved to Lingfield Grove and then on to Hilltop Road. But you probably know all this! Looking forward to watching video - haven't had time yet. Are you Chris 48 by any chance, because he was interested in the car thing?

[underworld]

Yes Chris 48 was me. I left and came back.

Is your uncle Ian still alive? Are there any members of your family still in Liverpool Laura?

[hmtmaj]

Well done Underworld for providing Laura all this info and pics, sounds like you have filled in a lot af gaps for her

[dazza]

Underworld, you're becoming quite the sleuth yourself. Excellent work.

[underworld]

Ha ha

[Lord Dick]

Laura Anne, i dont really see how your mother can hate the author of The Cameo Conspiracy (without any evidence of malice on his part).
She might just as well hate the author of the other book on the case! But you grandfather certainly hated villains! To such an extent that he determined to rid Liverpool of what he called "The Scum". He was certainly overzealous in this regard. He also firmly believed in the retention of hanging and the Cat-O-Nine-Tails - the barbaric flogging of prisoners.
As a result, (and as a person who has read extensively on both cases) I'm afraid that there is abundant evidence that he did indeed fabricate evidence in both the Cameo and the Cranborne Road murder cases in order to secure convictions.I dont disbelieve you when you say he was a lovely Grandpa. I can only surmise he was what old wives used to call, "an outside devil and inside angel".
I do sympathise with you. None of us choose our parents...or our grandparents. All Children are born innocent. And It is a terrible to thing to have ones, memories, dreams and illusions shattered.

[Lord Dick]

Please do not attach any significance to the large type in my previous post.
It was simply a typing error caused through my inexperience of posting on Yo!

[laura anne]

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

[ChrisGeorge]

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

Hi Laura

I have met and corresponded with George and we are both writers. I think, based on my experience, it's probably true to say that while George might hate what your grandfather did in terms of his methods, he does not hate your grandfather as an individual.

Also in considering the Cameo case, which involved gun violence, at that date, sixty years ago a rarity in Liverpool and in the United Kingdom generally, Mr. Balmer probably genuinely believed that his methods were justified to, as it were, "clean up the city" and prevent further such gun violence. The men arrested, Kelly and Connolly, became examples to deter others from using guns. Of course that would have been the case as well if the men arrested were the men responsible for the murders.

Chris