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Thread: Liverpool Castle

  1. #1
    Senior Member bobbymac's Avatar
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    Default Liverpool Castle

    A friend sent me this, I thought you'd like it. Nice pic. of Liverpool Castle.


    ADVERTISING


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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    That is brilliant I've never seen that before, more info please
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

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    Ping Pong victorialush's Avatar
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    I just found some info on this.....

    West Derby was one of the eight hundreds of Lancashire, fifteen townships came under its durisdiction and its boundaries reached as far west as Moss St, Islington. Over the centuries it was in turn inhabited by the Danes, Anglo-Saxons, and until 13thC. stood in a forest 11 miles long/2 miles wide. It has had a Saxon fort, a Norman Fort and now a small walled garden marks the site. King John transferred the Wapentake court from West Derby, when he granted the Charter to L,pool in 1207. (the forerunner of the County Court today). Ecclesiastically West Derby was part of Walton Parish for many years, but became independent in 1848. The present parish church built 1853/4 (designed by Gilbert G Scott, replaced the ancient chapel of St Mary the Virgin.
    Source

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    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    In the old days West Derby covered a lot more area than it does today.
    There is an old boundary marker at the top of Townsend lane which says, 'Township of West Derby' ... and yet Townsend lane is now classed as being in Anfield.
    ... bit confusing really ... if you turn left at the top of Townsend lane and into Lower Breck rd - that comes under the Tuebrook boundary

  5. #5
    PhilipG
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    Default Liverpool Castle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    That is brilliant I've never seen that before, more info please
    I don't know if this link

    has ever been posted before.
    http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/...tle/castle.htm

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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    I've a few pics of the castle too, posted them here a couple of

    weeks back but removed them for copyright issues. I'll see if I can post em up again.
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

    All server & domain costs are covered by myself & kind donations of individuals.

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  7. #7
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    I've a few pics of the castle too, posted them here a

    couple of weeks back but removed them for copyright issues. I'll see if I can post em up again.
    As far as copyright goes, I would assume that

    most authors would be pleased that their book is being given credit, as long as you only post a fraction of their work.

  8. #8
    MissInformed
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    i wish

    they would re-print half of the old Liverpool books, it seems silly that we all are so interested and we can't get hold of them! grrrrrr!!

  9. #9
    PhilipG
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    Default Old Pictures

    These are from an 1869 book I saw in Ormskirk Library.
    It was too big (& fragile) to photocopy, but fine to take photos of.
    I think the shadow is my

    fat tummy!

    I haven't forgotten Reynolds.
    I've got some better pics, & will post them in "Some Liverpool Cinemas" tomorrow (Sunday).

    I've also put together a history of the building.
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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindylou View Post
    In the old days West Derby covered a lot more area than it does today.
    There is an old boundary marker at the top of Townsend lane

    which says, 'Township of West Derby' ... and yet Townsend lane is now classed as being in Anfield.
    ... bit confusing really ... if you turn left at the

    top of Townsend lane and into Lower Breck rd - that comes under the Tuebrook boundary
    Of course, West Derby Hundred, in which both

    the motte and bailey castle at West Derby and later Liverpool Castle were located, covered the whole of present-day Liverpool and surrounding towns and was

    mentioned in the Domesday Book. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Derby_(hundred)

    I was surprised to learn that a walled garden now

    marks the site of West Derby Castle and I must check it out next time I am in the 'Pool. Anyone know exactly what road the walled garden is

    on?

    Chris
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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbymac View Post
    A friend sent me this, I thought you'd like it. Nice pic. of Liverpool Castle.
    Thanks, Philip G and bobbymac for

    posting these pics. The colour pic posted by bobby looks to me as if it might have been something got up at the time of the 1957 anniversary of the founding

    of Liverpool, or perhaps even the 1907 celebration, although I should think the later one is more probable.

    Philip, the pic of Liverpool Castle you

    posted looks somewhat of a generic picture of a castle and I believe one of the problems that faces anyone writing about the castle is that there was no good

    illustration of the castle done, so the modern drawings are conjectural - the best guess of the historian or investigator. The castle is seen in a number of

    views of the town in the later 17th century but that was when it was falling apart and before it was demolished and swept away and St. Peter's Church and

    later the Victoria Monument were built on the site.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Bobby

    The middle pic that you posted is of the Tower at the bottom of Water Street and shouldn't be confused

    with Liverpool Castle. You probably know that but I wanted to note it in case anyone was confused. This lasted longer than the castle and was built by Lord

    Stanley (later Earls of Derby) at the beginning of the 15th century. Since it stood longer than the castle and was on the waterfront there are better views

    of it than of the castle. It was in its last years used as a prison to house French and American prisoners. The view you posted accords with the way the

    Tower is shown in a book I have, Richard Brooke's Liverpool in the Last Quarter of the Eighteenth Century, published in 1853.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Here are some interesting views of LIVERPOOL CASTLE as attachments, please click to view the larger version:
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    Last edited by Kev; 09-08-2007 at 06:52 AM.
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    There is a replica of the ruins of

    Liverpool castle at Rivington Pike near Bolton. That is where Liverrpool once got its water, but out grew it very quickly and turned to

    Wales.

    http://www.kroma.co.uk/liverpool-castle-ruins.asp

    http://lanternimages.lancashire.gov.uk/index.php?a=showall&s=gallery&key=AYTozOntpOjA7c

    zoxOiIxIjtpOjE7czoxOiI2IjtpOjI7czoxOiI3Ijt9&pg=136


    http://www.roystpierre.com/

    albums/album53/LC_courtyard.jpg
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    how it once was?


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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Philip, the pic of Liverpool Castle you posted looks somewhat of a generic picture of a castle and I believe one of the

    problems that faces anyone writing about the castle is that there was no good illustration of the castle done, so the modern drawings are conjectural
    Enough paintings and drawing were done to know what it was

    like.



    http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/mrlhp/local/castle/castlepics.htm
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  16. #16
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Enough paintings and drawing were done to know what it was

    like.
    Hi Waterways

    My point is that from those views you don't get the inside details of what the castle looked like, you only see it from

    a distance and usually from the water. This is why one of the references on the castle is entitled, E.W. Cox, 1892, 'An Attempt to Recover the Plans of the

    Castle of Liverpool from Authentic records; Considered in Connection with Medieval Principles of Defence and Construction,' Transactions of the

    Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society
    Vol42 p195-254 [map, plans, diag]

    Mr Cox's investigation resulted in the conjectural detailed drawing

    seen at the top of Mike Royden's page on the castle

    http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/mrlhp/local/castle/castle.htm

    I see

    there was a replica of what they thought the castle looked like built at Rivington. See http://www.bolton.org.uk/rivington.html

    Chris
    Last edited by Kev; 11-05-2006 at 10:11 PM.
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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    From

    Wikipedia:

    Liverpool Castle was a castle which was situated in

    Liverpool, England. It stood from the early 13th century to the early 18th century.

    Construction

    It was probably erected in the 1230s, between

    1232 and 1235 under the orders of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby. No record of the castle construction survive. Nearby in West Derby, there had long

    been a castle, which was taken by the Ferrers in 1232, by 1296 it lay in ruins. The castle was built to protect King John's new port of Liverpool and was

    sited at the top of modern day Lord Street, the highest point in the city and overlooking the Pool. This corresponds to present day Derby Square (Queen

    Victoria Monument) near the city centre.

    Description

    The castle was built on top a plateau, which had been specially construted, and a moat

    measuring 20 yards was cut out of solid rock. The main building of the castle consisted of the gatehouse flanked by two towers at the north-east corner which

    faced Castle Street; three round towers at the three remaining corners, one being added at a later date than the others, in 1442. Four curtain walls

    connected the four towers, the northern and southern wall were recessed to allow them to be commanded from the towers. Inside the castle were a hall and

    chapel, which were connected to the south-western tower, and a brewhouse and bakehouse. There was also a passage which ran under the moat toward the edge of

    the river. The courtyard was divided by a wall built running from the north wall to the south wall. Underneath the castle walls stood a dovecot and an

    orchard ran from the castle to the Pool in the east.

    19th century plan of Liverpool

    Castle
    History

    1200s

    Upon the death of William de Ferrers in 1247, his son William inherited both Liverpool Castle and West Deby Castle.

    The heir to the title was Robert de Ferrers. He rebelled against King Henry III and was arrested and held in the Tower of London and then Windsor Castle. His

    lands and title were removed and taken back by the Crown. Henry III presented the land, along with Lancaster to his second son Edmund. Mary de Ferrers, wife

    of the forfeited earl and niece to the King was ordered to surrender the castle in July 1266. The lands was then held by Edmund and passed onto his successor

    Thomas.

    1300s

    It was under the administration of Thomas that Liverpool progressed steadily. The earl did not bestow much worth on the borough of

    Liverpool and in 1315, he granted the castle and the land to Robert de Holland. The creation of the patronage of Robert de Holland caused some unrest among

    other landowners, and on 25 October[1] in the same year, Adam Banastre, Henry de Lea, and William de Bradshagh (Bradshaw) banded together and launched an

    attack on the castle, and were defeated within an hour. This is the only recorded attack on the castle to happen before the English Civil War. Between 1315

    and 1323 the borough of Liverpool returned to the hands of the Crown. In 1323 King Edward II visited the town and lodged at the castle from 24 October to 30

    October. Upon the death of Edward II in 1327 King Edward III succeeded to the throne. During his early reign Edward utilised Liverpool at a port of

    embarkation in his wars with Scotland and Ireland. In 1327 the King ordered the constable of the castle to give shelter to men fleeing from the Scots. There

    was an inquisition into the land at Lancaster in 1367 that stated 'there is at Liverpull a certain Castle, the foss whereof and the herbage are worth by the

    year 2s., and there is a dovehouse under the Castle which is worth by the year 6s.8d.

    1400s - 1500s

    Sir Richard Molyneux was appointed constable

    of the castle in 1440 and the title was made hereditary five years later. In 1442 the castle was strengthened by the addition of a fourth tower in the

    south-east corner to the cost of 46 13s 10d[3]. On October 2, 1559 the castle is stated as being 'in utter ruin and decay'. The Great Tower had a slate

    roof and it was suggested to be used as storage for the court rolls. It was decided that the castle would undergo repairs costin around 150[2], 'otherwaies

    it were a grate defacement unto the said towne of Litherpole[3].'

    1600s - present

    During the reign of Charles I the castle was seized by Lord

    Derby. In 1644 Prince Rupert and his men took the castle, which was later taken back by Sir John Moore. Protestant supporters of William of Orange seized the

    castle in 1689. On March 5, 1704[2] the burgesses obtained a lease for the castle and its site from the Crown for fifty years. Lord Molyneux disputed this as

    he still claimed hereditary constableship. This delayed the settlement of the lease until 1726, when the last remaining ruins of the castle were removed.

    Finally in 1715 an Act was passed to demolish the castle and build a church in its place. Construction of St George's begun on the site of the old castle

    and was consecrated in 1734. By 1825 the church had been pulled down and a new one built in its place. In 1899 the church was demolished and the Victoria

    Monument was erected in 1902. In 1976 excavation of the south side of Castle Street was conducted prior to the construction of the Crown Courts building

    which were built in the style of a castle.

    In the village of Rivington on the West Pennine Moors near Chorley there is a scaled down rebuild of Liverpool

    Castle.
    Last edited by Kev; 09-08-2007 at 06:46 AM.
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  18. #18
    GhostSearch GhostSearch's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Coffee and a read me thinks

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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    From

    Wikipedia:

    . . . . In 1976 excavation of the south side of Castle Street was conducted

    prior to the construction of the Crown Courts building which were built in the style of a castle.
    I was part of that dig in 1976 and have

    often wondered what the findings of the dig were and whether they found anything worthwhile. I am sure the results were published somewhere. I know this is

    a little late to ask, thirty years later. That reminds me as well there are a few people who owe me checks for a few things as well. . .



    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

    All server & domain costs are covered by myself & kind donations of individuals.

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  21. #21
    MissInformed
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    These are from an

    1869 book I saw in Ormskirk Library.
    It was too big (& fragile) to photocopy, but fine to take photos of.
    I think the shadow is my fat tummy! :celb

    (6):

    I haven't forgotten Reynolds.
    I've got some better pics, & will post them in "Some Liverpool Cinemas" tomorrow (Sunday). I've also put

    together a history of the building.
    Wow, that's amazing...thank you so much for your time.

  22. #22
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi Kev

    Good illustrations, Kev. It looks as if all except one or two were done by noted Merseyside artist

    William Gawin Herdman (1805-82) who did much to provide illustrations of old Liverpool, often

    based on reminiscences of old timers that he spoke to. The exceptions seem to be the brown view from the river which I note is dated "J. B. 1807" though it

    shows a view of Liverpool I believe in the late seventeenth century, and may have, I assume, served as the basis for Herdman's similar view that you show,

    and the very dark view of the castle with soldiers in the foreground which might be meant to show the castle at the time of the Civil War. That illustration

    might also be a Herdman but it does not accord with the rosier pastels he generally used, unless he did it to capture the mood or perhaps it was done by his

    son William Herdman or another artist entirely.

    Actually if you look, pics 1, 4, and 8 are the same view just rendered differently in terms of color

    or type of reproduction technique.

    Chris
    Last edited by ChrisGeorge; 11-07-2006 at 05:56 PM.
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  23. #23
    PhilipG
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    Beautiful!
    Keep them coming, please.

  24. #24
    scouserdave
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    A belated thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. Very interesting

  25. #25
    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbymac View Post
    A friend sent me this, I thought you'd like it. Nice pic. of Liverpool Castle.
    Bobbymac, I forgot to mention, what you originally posted was a post card that was part of a set produced especially for the 1907, 700th birthday celebrations.
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

    All server & domain costs are covered by myself & kind donations of individuals.

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  26. #26
    Senior Member knowhowe's Avatar
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    Default Michael O'Mahoney: Castle Hill

    Here is what the excellent Michael O'Mahony had to say about the Castle and its environs in 1931:


    "It is gone long ago, and its going was inevitable. The few yards of parapet cornered off Fenwick-street and not much longer than its own name plate is but a reminder of what was once the only hill within the town.
    With its going, went landmarks, the loss of which is irreparable.

    To the city that loves a lord antiquity would seem to have been anathema, that is, as long as there was anything well worth preserving. Gone is the venerable chapel of Sainte Mary del Key, gone the tower built in 1413 by "John the Irischman", and in which Lord Derby, who fed 60 old people daily, frequently feasted 1,000 guests; gone the majestic old Castle, and if Liverpoof to-day has no building which can truly be called ancient, there's no one to blame but Liverpool. The progress-mongers laid a heavy hand on the " Old Town " when they set about its development.

    Anyway, the Castle once gone, nothing could save the Hill; indeed, from its very position it was bound to be cleared away whether the Castle went or stayed. The original site of the old keep was so high that steep stone stairs, called Kenyon's Steps, crossed the fosse to the level of Preeson's Row, but that was not Castle Hill; the Hill, so-called, ran outside the Castle wall down to the tide in a line with Moor Street, and, like Moor Street, ended at the open beach. Those who want to know what old Castle Street looked like in those days have only to look down Cable Street or Atherton Street to-day to realise it. The rent of a house was 4 a year, while a dovecote and orchard was let for 13s. 4d.

    The south end of the street did not extend beyond the hill, which would be about the present Cook Street. Fosse and ditch and other environs of the castle had become hemmed in by a dense mass of buildings penetrated by narrow wynds and alleys; but with the improvements of 1786 these rookeries were swept away and the hill went with them.

    Drawings of the district fortunately exist owing to the zeal of that erudite antiquary and worthy man, Mathew Gregson. In one, the end of Castle Hill, near Moor Street, are seen the houses partially pulled down. A post-chaise and pair are approaching, with a lady and gentleman inside, but find a difficulty in threading the carts carrying soil and rubbish. A gentleman in a bright red coat is seen clearing the way for a handsome stout lady in a fur-trimmed pelisse, with an immense straw hat and drooping feather and a young girl in a bright green pelisse wearing a coal scuttle bonnet. In another are seen two men carrying a sedan chair, while at the corner of Moor Street a bellman is surrounded by a little group and bawling forth announcements.

    Poor old Moor Street, the murky entry down which the uninterested passer-by looks askance if he looks at all, is the one relic of the once mighty family who reigned in mediaeval state in the Old Hall which has not changed its name. It is now but a gloomy byway, but mention it, and you not only hear the rustling of the leaves of history, but the crackling of that most human document, the " Moore Rental," of which I shall have more to say later.

    Though narrow, Moor Street was open to the estuary at the lower end, receiving the pure sea breezes, and looking out on to a lovely prospect; while most of the houses were of the gabled, transomed, and dormered style, containing a lingering reminiscence of the mediaeval. One mansion on the south side had a long facade in two storeys, with pilasters running up the whole height, carrying an entablature. Another house, built in 1665, bore on its front the arms of Fayreclough impaling Hyde, with this inscription, "Door, stand thou open to none but an honest man."

    Those who lived in those days every time they looked up Lord Street saw the Castle with its four towers and battlemented walls rising to the sky, and beheld what we would gladly see to-day. Although St. George's Church was architecturally no substitute for what it supplanted, I never look up Lord-street now that I do not miss its graceful spire.

    If the architecture of the church was unworthy of what went before it, what can be said of what has come after it? I can only say that I am reminded of the statement that Princess Beatrice driving by the exact spot was heard to exclaim, " Surely,'Mamma never looked like that?" (It is to be earnestly hoped that her Royal Highness, if she has so far escaped the sight, will never behold a certain monstrosity in Manchester.)

    Though the disappearance of Castle Hill was considered necessary for the opening of Castle Street, some regretted it for a domestic reason. It is on record that a house had subsided so far as to have a steep incline in its dining-room, which was considered most convenient by both host and guests, "as it permitted the gravy to flow on one side of the plate."
    Chester: a Virtual Stroll Around the Walls-
    http://www.chesterwalls.info

    The Liverpool Gallery-
    http://www.chesterwalls.info/gallery/liverpool.html

    The Chester Shop
    http://www.thechestershop.com


    Chester & Liverpool Guided Walks
    http://www.chesterwalls.info/guidedwalks.html

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    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    From Wikipedia:
    In 1976 excavation of the south side of Castle Street was conducted prior to the construction of the Crown Courts building which were built in the style of a castle.
    I know it's a bit silly asking when I live close enough to go have a look, but any photo's of the courts? Just so I can see the likeness.

    I've always thought they should knock down the courts and rebuilt the castle

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    Gerard
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouse smurf View Post
    I know it's a bit silly asking when I live close enough to go have a look, but any photo's of the courts? Just so I can see the likeness.

    I've always thought they should knock down the courts and rebuilt the castle

    Av a little look at these smurf.

    http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/...tle/castle.htm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/conte...s_stage7.shtml

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    Excellent links cheers
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    Cool links, can't see any pics of the court though. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. I had a quick look online and can't see any pics of it either

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