Capital of Culture Opening 300m eyes on Liverpool

[mimng]

Then you need to inform yourself, not being patronising but just so that you don't repeat the message to others. We had some of the most vociferous abolishionists. Slaves never entered here but for a handful, it was the traded goods that Liverpool made some - not all of its riches from and only for the very few. Look at who put the money into Liverpool's civic buildings. Brewers like Andrew Barclay Walker, William Brown whom the street was renamed after - Picton - look at the great architects like Alfred Waterhouse, Herbert J. Rowse - look at the myths that claim certain monuments are about slavery when they in fact have nothing to do with them. Study our trade at the time with Ireland and the Isle of Man, that's where the lions share of incoming monies came from and then read White Gold.

slave ships left liverpool for africa, more than anywhere else at the height of slavery, if i remember my trip to the slavery exhibition correctly. they then went from africa to america, then came back from america to liverpool with goods, bought from the sale of slaves. so liverpool profitted from slavery, without a doubt. you are correct in saying we had some of the most vociferous abolishionists, and rightly so. where there is evil, good people must stand up.

i liken the current wage-slavery through subordination to unaccountable multinational companies, as we increasingly see in the 'gentrification' of liverpool and the whole of the UK, as akin to the slavery of africans over 200 years ago. i believe history will view unelected high finance with the same moral repugnance as the original slave traders. and once again, good peoplemust stand up to oppose it.

[Libertarian]

slave ships left liverpool for africa, more than anywhere else at the height of slavery, if i remember my trip to the slavery exhibition correctly. they then went from africa to america, then came back from america to liverpool with goods, bought from the sale of slaves. so liverpool profitted from slavery, without a doubt. you are correct in saying we had some of the most vociferous abolishionists, and rightly so. where there is evil, good people must stand up.

i liken the current wage-slavery through subordination to unaccountable multinational companies, as we increasingly see in the 'gentrification' of liverpool and the whole of the UK, as akin to the slavery of africans over 200 years ago. i believe history will view unelected high finance with the same moral repugnance as the original slave traders. and once again, good peoplemust stand up to oppose it.

I have heard it all now the regeneration of Liverpool is akin to slaveryLOL

[Ged]

Yes, we are a port, we love to beat ourselves up over this, it helps make us high up in the Political correctness tables too but even the slave trade tour guide has some things wrong (which has been mentioned elsewhere here/on another forum too) Bristol, London and even other countries like Spain and Portugal also had many many slaves ships trading - there was never a leg of the journey that brought slaves here, only collecting them from African chiefs who had rounded opposing tribes up but that's another story.

We could say having a myriad of Eastern European workers over here which lowers the standard of pay is current slavery which only seems to affect the indigenous population - not that you can blame the workers, just the greedy bosses who don't pay them the same.

[mimng]

we went down the loony Left road in the 80's. I remember when Liverpool was a 'nuclear free zone' and someone changed the sign to 'jobs free zone' that said it all really.

If on line shopping is gonna replace the high street why hasn't it done so already? Most people have computers. That is as fictitous as the idea that the internet would replace books which clearly hasn't happened.

A Merseyside parliament? i don't think so sounds a bit like the failed Merseyside County Council which was appropriately abolished for being a failure.

Liverpool wasn't buuilt on slavery this is becoming a received urban politically correct myth. althought slaves were brought here it is wrong to say that the wealth of the city was built on them it was built on the Empire.

empire is the same as slavery! how can you have an empire without enslaving whole other countries????

internet shopping is increasing year on year, and people are spending less and less on the high st. this is an established fact that is worrying multinational companies greatly.

i am not a member of the loony left, as you so amply discredit me, i just think people should have self-determination (ie no empires). devolution is working very well in scotland, and it will conitnue to spread. devon and cornwall will increase their push for devolution, and i can see city-states as the next logical step in this. the independance that liverpool has from the british national psyche makes it a prime candidate for this. maybe the 80s was too soon?

[Libertarian]

slave ships left liverpool for africa, more than anywhere else at the height of slavery, if i remember my trip to the slavery exhibition correctly. they then went from africa to america, then came back from america to liverpool with goods, bought from the sale of slaves. so liverpool profitted from slavery, without a doubt. you are correct in saying we had some of the most vociferous abolishionists, and rightly so. where there is evil, good people must stand up.

i liken the current wage-slavery through subordination to unaccountable multinational companies, as we increasingly see in the 'gentrification' of liverpool and the whole of the UK, as akin to the slavery of africans over 200 years ago. i believe history will view unelected high finance with the same moral repugnance as the original slave traders. and once again, good peoplemust stand up to oppose it.

Under the DICTAATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT the Soviet Union was a nightmare for the people who lived in it, sure they never had shops or choices to make, they lived in a grey soulless world which they couldn't wait to throw off in 1989.

[Ged]

Some of those other countries of our then Empire were quite happy and proud to be so and some still haven't given it up - think of the ones that are now built up and benefitted from it too but yes I get your drift by and large.

[Libertarian]

empire is the same as slavery! how can you have an empire without enslaving whole other countries????

internet shopping is increasing year on year, and people are spending less and less on the high st. this is an established fact that is worrying multinational companies greatly.

i am not a member of the loony left, as you so amply discredit me, i just think people should have self-determination (ie no empires). devolution is working very well in scotland, and it will conitnue to spread. devon and cornwall will increase their push for devolution, and i can see city-states as the next logical step in this. the independance that liverpool has from the british national psyche makes it a prime candidate for this. maybe the 80s was too soon?

I'm not a pc apologist for the empire, for sure I don't want it back but it brought some good things to the people it civilised.
Devolution was brought about by Tony Blair far from a lefty but it does not mean independence they are still part of the UK.

[mimng]

it seems we've gone very far off-topic! i will no longer post here, but am willing to continue any further discussion with any members by private message.

thanks again for the freedom of speech

[Libertarian]

it seems we've gone very far off-topic! i will no longer post here, but am willing to continue any further discussion with any members by private message.

thanks again for the freedom of speech

Well you are entitled to your view and I respect your right to make it.

[Gnomie]

What made this city great was its people

[Ged]

Well mimng, I hope you change your mind and do continue to post here because opposing views and an open mind are not bad things and that goes for both sides.

[lindylou]

well, it is always good to have debate - as long as no one get's insulted.

[john]

I'm not a pc apologist for the empire, for sure I don't want it back but it brought some good things to the people it civilised.
Devolution was brought about by Tony Blair far from a lefty but it does not mean independence they are still part of the UK.

but it brought some good things to the people it civilised like VD, Measles, Smallpox, Christianity

[mr mcmoof]

Look I'm not gonna get personal about this. as it happens I didn't go because its not really my thing. Opening ceremonies tend to be plasticy don't they whether its the olympics or commonwealth games. The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic at the Echo arena though last night are an example of deep real culture and the fact that they played next to bands like the Farm or the Zutons --local lads shows how high culture and popular culture can interact seemlessly. I didn't see any references to the Met Quarter or shopping in the events. By the way I think it wrong that the council tax payer is picking up part of the bill for these events too, but when the elections come you have the chance to vote the people wwho make these decisons out! Part of the freedoms of living ina plasticy democracy.

I'm not trying to personal, far from it. I don't come to forums to argue, just debate.

As for voting for better representatives... Find me a mainstream forward looking, social democratic party that is willing to question the principles of free market fundamentalism and corporate rule, and I'll vote for em for sure!

[mr mcmoof]

I'm not a pc apologist for the empire, for sure I don't want it back but it brought some good things to the people it civilised.
Devolution was brought about by Tony Blair far from a lefty but it does not mean independence they are still part of the UK.

Civilised?

The very concept of civilisation is subjective. The Roman Empire saw itself as "civilised" and all others as "barbarian", but any modern examination of Roman ethics and that of, say, the "barbarian" celts, will quickly challenge that preconception. The same goes for the British Empire of the past, and the American Empire today.

Tacitus (Roman historian on the invasion of Britain):
--------------------------------------------------

"Robbers of the world, having by their universal plunder exhausted the land, they rifle the deep. If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious; if he be poor, they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of freedom; they make a wilderness and call it peace."

Sound familiar?