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Thread: All Saints Church, Childwall

  1. #31
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Default All Saints Childwall new Church Hall

    This project is in many ways similar to that for St James, Toxteth. It was first suggested a few years ago to overcome the safety problems of large numbers of children crossing the busy road between the present church hall and the old church. My then understanding was that the housing to be provided on the church hall site was some form of sheltered housing.


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  2. #32
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    This project is in many ways similar to that for St James, Toxteth. It was first suggested a few years ago to overcome the safety problems of large numbers of children crossing the busy road between the present church hall and the old church. My then understanding was that the housing to be provided on the church hall site was some form of sheltered housing.
    That the funniest thing I also heard 'busy road'. In all the years of marching down that road in the Boys Brigade, not once could I ever find a single statistic for a traffic accident there.

    Standing under the lytchgate opposite the pub, you are far more likely to be struck by a car there as the road narrows and no one takes that corner slowly. I think the count from memory is 14 times that wall/lytchgate has been demolshed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    Standing under the lytchgate opposite the pub, you are far more likely to be struck by a car there as the road narrows and no one takes that corner slowly. I think the count from memory is 14 times that wall/lytchgate has been demolshed.
    The mortar is only just dry from the last repair. It's not a busy road, just a dangerous junction - especially when it's icy. The number of cars you see skating down past the pub.

    It's a lovely area, why can't people just leave it as such. Please keep us informed, Cadfael, as it's the first I'd heard about the proposal.

    John

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    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    That the funniest thing I also heard 'busy road'. In all the years of marching down that road in the Boys Brigade, not once could I ever find a single statistic for a traffic accident there.

    Standing under the lytchgate opposite the pub, you are far more likely to be struck by a car there as the road narrows and no one takes that corner slowly. I think the count from memory is 14 times that wall/lytchgate has been demolshed.
    Of course the Boys' Brigade marches have traffic control marshalls, so it's not surprising you've not had an accident. Long queues of children crossing the busy road from the church hall to the church is a different matter. It has frightened me on more than one occasion to see accidents almost occuring. Perhaps your comment about the lychgate and crashes makes my point.

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    Member redjed1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    Of course the Boys' Brigade marches have traffic control marshalls, so it's not surprising you've not had an accident. Long queues of children crossing the busy road from the church hall to the church is a different matter. It has frightened me on more than one occasion to see accidents almost occuring. Perhaps your comment about the lychgate and crashes makes my point.
    Taffy, I don't agree.
    The crashes into the lytchgate are not due to traffic congestion, rather the blind junction when approaching from Childwall Abbey Road. Most seem to occur in icy conditions, when the hill becomes treacherous. Because it is a blind junction, I find that most drivers use extreme caution at the junction. The council has constructed speed bumps along all the surrounding areas to discourage speeding.
    I have passed when children cross the road to the church hall and think that, provided they realise they are crossing a road, where traffic generally has the right of way, this section of road is no more dangerous than others.
    If the church is allowed to build a new hall on the Bloody Acre, most children will still have to cross the road to get home. If further houses are allowed to be built on the site, the amount of traffic in the area will increase.

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    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redjed1 View Post
    Taffy, I don't agree.
    The crashes into the lytchgate are not due to traffic congestion, rather the blind junction when approaching from Childwall Abbey Road. Most seem to occur in icy conditions, when the hill becomes treacherous. Because it is a blind junction, I find that most drivers use extreme caution at the junction. The council has constructed speed bumps along all the surrounding areas to discourage speeding.
    I have passed when children cross the road to the church hall and think that, provided they realise they are crossing a road, where traffic generally has the right of way, this section of road is no more dangerous than others.
    If the church is allowed to build a new hall on the Bloody Acre, most children will still have to cross the road to get home. If further houses are allowed to be built on the site, the amount of traffic in the area will increase.
    I wasn't really refering to traffic congestion. Just one car out of control down the hill is enough. From my own experience the road is very hazardous under icy conditions. It's more the traffic coming from Score Lane round the blind corner that is more dangerous though. Large numbers of children leave the church enmasse for Sunday school lessons and later return to the service. It's at these times that there is an additional hazard which cannot be denied. After the service there would be individual parental supervision to cross any roads.

    The church is trying to provide a better facility for the community and should be supported. I realise most of the community don't attend the church but that is perhaps not the point.

  7. #37
    Member redjed1's Avatar
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    Hi Taffy
    I don't attend the church, but admire the wonderful building and its surroundings. Looks like there are two issues involved -
    1) Build a new church hall on Bloody Acre - I always thought it was a 'protected area' of some sort, as Cadfael said.
    2) Sell off the ground where the old hall is / was, and allow it to be used for more housing. I and probably the vast majority of people from the area would be totally against this. It would only be detrimental to the area. Surely no-one could be in favour of houses on this lovely site.

  8. #38
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redjed1 View Post
    Hi Taffy
    I don't attend the church, but admire the wonderful building and its surroundings. Looks like there are two issues involved -
    1) Build a new church hall on Bloody Acre - I always thought it was a 'protected area' of some sort, as Cadfael said.
    2) Sell off the ground where the old hall is / was, and allow it to be used for more housing. I and probably the vast majority of people from the area would be totally against this. It would only be detrimental to the area. Surely no-one could be in favour of houses on this lovely site.
    If the plans are not allowed by the planning department, would you be against a Bridge being built over the road from the current Church hall to the Church. Perhaps something like Liverpool College built over North Mossley Hill Road for the same pupil safety reasons, So the road danger to Childwall's children will still be there and something has to be done. The church will be short of money; perhaps the residents of Childwall would be prepared to help fund such a bridge. I also don't attend the church but am aware of the child safety problems.

  9. #39
    Member redjed1's Avatar
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    A footbridge, provided it "blended in with the area", would be a better proposal, in my opinion. I'm sure the money could be found (a grant, or even as you suggest alongside a local collection) as I'm sure everyone is in favour of ensuring child safety.

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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    That the funniest thing I also heard 'busy road'. In all the years of marching down that road in the Boys Brigade, not once could I ever find a single statistic for a traffic accident there.

    Standing under the lytchgate opposite the pub, you are far more likely to be struck by a car there as the road narrows and no one takes that corner slowly. I think the count from memory is 14 times that wall/lytchgate has been demolshed.
    Hello Cadfael, taffy, and redjed1

    It's nice that Childwall retains its rural quality, and I enjoyed stopping at Childwall Abbey when I was home in Liverpool in May of last year. However, it should be recognized that Childwall is part of a busy urban area. I therefore suggest that it would not be too radical an idea to put a traffic light at the road junction in front of the church.

    All the best

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  11. #41
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    If the plans are not allowed by the planning department, would you be against a Bridge being built over the road from the current Church hall to the Church. Perhaps something like Liverpool College built over North Mossley Hill Road for the same pupil safety reasons, So the road danger to Childwall's children will still be there and something has to be done. The church will be short of money; perhaps the residents of Childwall would be prepared to help fund such a bridge. I also don't attend the church but am aware of the child safety problems.
    A Bridge? I've heard it all now. For anyone thinking that the road is like a Motorway junction, on the many times I have spent at the church, you could count maybe 10 cars in an hour passing that spot. Most visitors to the Pub come from Score Lane or down Childwall Abbey Road.

    We are talking about a 15ft piece of road from which you can see both sides as you cross for miles. I can't think of any safer place and I've never come across any near miss despite being part of a group that has crossed that road all my life from the age of 5+ plus. If anyone can tell me of a single incident involving a car and bod on that road then I'd give em money.

    Last edited by Cadfael; 10-19-2008 at 10:10 PM.

  12. #42
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    A Bridge? I've heard it all now. For anyone thinking that the road is like a Motorway junction, on the many times I have spent at the church, you could count maybe 10 cars in an hour passing that spot. Most visitors to the Pub come from Score Lane or down Childwall Abbey Road.



    Go on, show us a photo of the road in the other direction from Score Lane and then say it's not dangerous

  13. #43
    Member redjed1's Avatar
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    Hi Chris, Taffy + Cadfael

    Don't think a set of traffic lights would work at the junction. There really isn't the traffic to justify them.

    Thinking about a bridge, I don't think it would work anyway. It would look stupid and would need to be high enough to accomodate tall vehicles. I think the only solution would be to contact the highways authority and see what they could do to help at the times you are talking about. Perhaps a kind of lypop man?

    The stretch past the pub, into Score Lane, has never seemed a problem to me. Score Lane has regular speed bumps (including one on the corner by the pub).

    John

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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    Go on, show us a photo of the road in the other direction from Score Lane and then say it's not dangerous
    But it is - that's the point. You only have to look at the lack of kerb outside the lytchgate to see that numerous cars have flattened it over the years.

    The whole stretch of road is quiet, if there were people walking out of the pub straight in to the road and being killed then I'm sure something would have been done before now.

    My only gripe is that there has never been a recorded crash from the lytchgate to the church hall section yet this lytchgate opposite the pub has been taken down more times than I care to remember. The road here is narrow and there is no protection from the cars passing by very close.


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    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Thanks Cadfael for the aerial photo of the Score Lane blind bend. We'll have to differ on perceived risks to children of vehicles coming round this bend at speed. Speed bumps don't tend to slow such people down !!!

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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    Thanks Cadfael for the aerial photo of the Score Lane blind bend. We'll have to differ on perceived risks to children of vehicles coming round this bend at speed. Speed bumps don't tend to slow such people down !!!
    I'll have to get this one straight - are you more happy with bods crossing at the pub lytchgate or the next one down opposite the church hall side entrance? I am of the party which has no problem with the current 'crossing' yet feel that people are at major risk at the 'corner' - is this your view too?

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    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    I'll have to get this one straight - are you more happy with bods crossing at the pub lytchgate or the next one down opposite the church hall side entrance? I am of the party which has no problem with the current 'crossing' yet feel that people are at major risk at the 'corner' - is this your view too?
    Both are hazardous really but the I see the real hazard as when the large numbers Sunday school children queue to cross at the road at the from the church hall to the Church's south porch entrance. Risk of course is a matter of judgement, the accuracy of which only time will reveaL. The essence of road safety is however to assess these risks and act accordingly. The fact that something hasn't happened is not an argument for doing nothing.

  18. #48
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    That's very true, but there is also trying to create a problem when one doesn't exist. If we have been crossing the road since 1930 when the church hall was built, to my knowledge, there has never been an incident when crossing the road - and this is nearly 4 times a month for me for a good number of years on the busiest times.

    No point in suddenly claiming that the road is dangerous (the PCC, not you) when in reality, there hasn't been an issue.

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