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Thread: Housing Mistakes

  1. #121
    Senior Member Doris Mousdale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    So they have given your mother indirectly a windfall. That is the case i all rent vs owning land. Your mother's house, the bricks dropping in price, like a car, it was the land that increased in value.

    This explains it well:

    I know it is the land value rather than the bricks and mortar which rises in value.
    The point is nobody GAVE them anything. They bought the freehold on the land it was something like five pounds a year ground rent in the 60s. So they paid the landowner a couple of hundred to freehold.
    When it was sold a smaller, less expensive house was bought for cash and that house has just been sold for four times what was paid for it in the 80s. The person buying has a bargain, nice well maintained house in a quiet well established area with good neighbours,plenty of shops and buses close by and so it goes.....
    My point is it was a leap of faith, a change from going with what was expected back then.
    What has happened in the meantime is we have two generations reliant on social housing which was meant as a stop-gap. In some cases both parents and grown children have been in long term secure work but still feel their place is in a "corpy house" and that's fine that's their choice but what happens,years later, when a more needy family comes along, more deserving of your lovely little house and garden and legally all you are entitled to is a one bedroom flat in a run down block what rights do you have?
    So back to the mistakes in housing.It wasn't the housing that was suspect- we all know you can do up a dump- it was the planning and lack of foresight as to what would happen to the neighbourhood, the breaking up of communities ,families, sent to raw barely finished newtowns and suburbs that planners and councils gave up on too soon. Those demolished tower blocks would be desirable to some if built now on the rolling green slopes of Netherfield Rd where they were originally set down.
    Some good people coped with the change, flourished, treated their houses like little palaces,places of great pride,but you know it only takes one rubbish collector who stores broken down cars "for spares" one bad garden and a crowd of feral kids tagging fences, a couple of horrible dogs and an agressive loudmouth living in the street and it all turns to custard.
    So is it architects, planners,the council, the tenants or what?
    The greening of Liverpool 5 has taken 50 years during which time council houses have come and gone as have the population and yet in other places there are hundred year old houses looking better than ever ( Woolton Village)
    I don't know the answer but maybe a good rent to buy scheme for tenants who look after the property, bonds with interest payable every five years if the property is in good order or guaranteed good downsizing when the time is appropriate, whatever it takes to put the landlord/tenant question under the spotlight.

  2. #122
    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    In the sixties we were offered a corporation house in Macketts Lane or Cantril Farm because of Slum Clearance in Liverpool 5. My parents went and had a look and decided they didn't want to live in either place ( You were given a choice of three places at the time ) They had a look at houses for sale and chose one in West Derby. The house was three thousand pounds with a four hundred pound deposit and fifteen pounds a month for twenty five years.
    After paying a pound a week it was a big increase and just a bit more than the corporation rent would have been down Macketts Lane.They stayed in the house paid off the mortgage and houses in the road are selling for between 160 to 190 thousand pounds now. The neighbour who went to Halewood is still paying rent.
    Much the same with my parents. When first married they lived as lodgers in a friend's house. My dad was away at sea and my mum worked in a factory. Later on my dad went on to work in factories and my mum became a shop girl. They didn't have unlimited income, but what they had they struggled to put down money for a 3 bed house in a quiet road which was Wolverton st. This was late 1950s, I think the cost was something similar to what you have quoted, but I've a feeling the price of our house was a bit less. (must ask for curiosity) .. but I do know the house price sounds laughable to today's prices!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    Some good people coped with the change, flourished, treated their houses like little palaces,places of great pride,but you know it only takes one rubbish collector who stores broken down cars "for spares" one bad garden and a crowd of feral kids tagging fences, a couple of horrible dogs and an agressive loudmouth living in the street and it all turns to custard.
    Yes, I definitely agree with this. .. this is what I mean when I said about people can make or break a place.
    As I said in another post, even if you are poor and don't have much resources, you can make the best of things until your situation improves. There is no excuse to live in your own tip of your own making ! Even in a bad situation, you can at least attempt to live in a civilised manner!


    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    My point is it was a leap of faith, a change from going with what was expected back then.
    but what happens,years later, when a more needy family comes along, more deserving of your lovely little house and garden and legally all you are entitled to is a one bedroom flat in a run down block what rights do you have?
    Funny you should mention this - it just happened to someone I know only last week - living in a 4 bedroom council house for over 16 or 17 years - family now flown the nest - so now been moved into a one bedroom place last week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    I know it is the land value rather than the bricks and mortar which rises in value.
    The point is nobody GAVE them anything. They bought the freehold on the land it was something like five pounds a year ground rent in the 60s. So they paid the landowner a couple of hundred to freehold.
    ps, Doris, I just checked with my mum, she says our first house in Wolverton st was 11 hundred pounds !! it sounds unbelievable now with todays prices !
    She says you paid weekly - like paying rent - with no other costs. My mum says garden houses were a bit more expensive, ours was less because it was a terraced with a back yard.

  3. #123
    Member Big where it matters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasevans View Post
    I'm not mobile anymore, I guess you mean the Florence Institute? Did you manage to get any pics?
    Thanks for the update.

    Chas
    No I didn't take any pictures but if you go to Google Street View and type in Wellington Road, Liverpool and then choose the Wellington Road, L8 option (there's more than one Wellington Road in Lpl) and click on the More option, and choose street view, you'll see the estate I mean. Because it's an old street view you can also see how the Florrie looked before renovation even began!

  4. #124
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    I know it is the land value rather than the bricks and mortar which rises in value.
    The point is nobody GAVE them anything.
    Doris, I have owned my own places since I was 22. In the current unfair system it is the only way to go, and your parents profited. My point was that the renters invariable pay for the landowners windfalls - me amongst them. Renting is a form slavery without shackles.

    My Dad always rented all his life. When at 21/22 I was to buy my first house he openly mocked me and said I was wasting my money. I never lived in the house and later sold it for twice as much as I bought. Many people thought that to own your own place was foolish as you may end up with a massive repair bill, while all his repairs were done for him. All he had to do was decorate.

    So back to the mistakes in housing. It wasn't the housing that was suspect- we all know you can do up a dump- it was the planning and lack of foresight as to what would happen to the neighbourhood, the breaking up of communities ,families, sent to raw barely finished newtowns and suburbs that planners and councils gave up on too soon.
    Doris, it was primarily the land. In another post I wrote:

    The problem was the planning system - only 7.7% of the land in the UK is settled. This created an artificial land shortage ratcheting up land prices. This put houses out of reach of low income people, meaning the state had to intervene. But they were also strapped by the same constraints, so cheap and nasty estates appeared.

    People could not afford their own homes. What did not help was the lower working class were deliberately not educated to buying a house and could never figure out the benefits, even though they may have just been able to afford it. The more intelligent middle classes figured it out and made windfalls in their homes. At 14 years old, a light bulb lit in my head. The teacher in passing mentioned land and those who own it and the money they make. I instantly connected that with power - I was right. As a kid I could never understand how Lord Derby occupied all that land on the outskirts and we could not go onto it and Cantril Farm next door was a collection of jerry built barracks type homes - a massive contrast. I went there once and it was a world away yet so near, with deer and lakes and a big mansion.

    Our planning system, backed by the large landowning aristocracy, was primarily responsible for the appalling estates. The private sector could not meet demand in a massively growing economy post-WW2 - because land prices were too high because of an artificially created land shortage, which cascaded into high house prices. There was no shortage of skills to build the houses -private or public. To keep prices down private developers made small, poky, jerry built houses. If an artificial land shortage was not created none of these amazingly expensive council blocks and estates would not have been built. They costed a fortune and had to be demolished while money was still owed on them.

    Travel around western Europe. Look at the small, cheap & nasty post WW2 homes in the UK, public & private compared to what they build. We always skimp on the roof. Look at the cheap roofs in the UK, most do not have barge boards on the gables, the top windows run up to the eves to save a few courses of bricks, making the houses look like sheds. They have better planning laws than us.

    The averaged sized new home:

    1. UK - is a paltry 76 square metres,
    2. Germany - with a similar population density new homes are 109 square metres, nearly half as much again in size.
    3. Australia - the average sized new home is 205.7 square metres,
    4. Netherlands - 115 square metres
    5. Denmark - 137 square metres. Danish rooms are twice as big as the hutches now on offer in the United Kingdom.
    6. Japan - a country once notorious for small homes, the average sized new home is now 140 square metres.



    The averaged size living room in the UK is a miniscule 13 foot by 15 foot; a room which has to function as TV room, children’s play room, entertainment room and relaxation room. If the averaged sized man stands in the middle of a typical British living room and stretched out an arm he will hit either a wall or ceiling. British TV has many programmes dedicated to giving a larger feel to a room by careful choice of furnishing and colour co-ordination. This is an attempt to create an impression of space in undersized homes.

    The housing charity, Shelter, estimate at least 500,000 households are officially overcrowded. All this in country, the UK, with a land surplus.

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  5. #125
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Chas, I think you're getting mixed up with architects costing tax payers regarding mistake with Peel who are private investors to the tune of 5.5b (just for Liverpool Waters)

    I think with the previous procrastination, red tape and feet dragging, they have every right to give the 'walk away' ultimatum. How other forward thinking city's must laugh at us.
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    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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