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Thread: Housing Mistakes

  1. #56
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post

    Although I would agree that space standards have fallen terribly and construction costs have unnecessarily increased in the UK, I really can't see what relevance this has to our social housing.

    It would be wonderful to have every house in the UK individually designed. A bespoke property for everyone. But are you really suggesting that this is even remotely affordable? Or is it perhaps that council or government will pay? Perhaps the Peabody Trust?

    There is also plenty of social housing in Europe - particularly in Germany, and France, and Holland, and... where are these other countries where most houses are designed individually???? Cloud Cuckoo land? (Actually, Switzerland would be about right).





    http://www.huf-haus-owners-group.co....1/10/mack1.jpg

    And yeah. I'd be very interested to see the penny heating bills for that property. Particularly in relation to construction cost. With all that glass, it might keep in some heat if tripled glazed but it would cost a fortune to build even in kit form (which BTW kind of suggests they are not so individual as you think) and some of the guys down Norris Green way (got to pick somewhere) would make short work of those windows.
    Social Housing. You were on about housing. These house are vert well made are zipped up ina few days on an insulated concrete pad. This method is ripe for social housing. They are oriented for passive solar. Insuation values are very high. As an architect you must have heard of Huf. They have been goping for decades. They give you anything you like. Glass? you have it. No glass and heavier insulation - you have it.
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    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    ....

    But so...? I guess no-one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. The choice still exists.

    And being Green is a moral issue. It is hard to get on a train or bus when the car is right there but it should be done - as a moral issue. For our children. If only public transport was more accessible and convenient... something I'm sure these 'planners' are advocating.

    ...
    .
    No, the planners do force people to live in certain locations - in the US it's called Planning and Zoning - I'm sure the UK has a similar law. It's also enforced in the longer term by where, and what type, of infrastructure is built.

    The moral values of Green based on carbon is still up for debate and deserves it's own thread. Note how every solution proposed so far involves taxes flowing the the govt.?

    I'll just leave with this - from a mere 40 years ago, a drop in the time bucket compared to climate predictions -

    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #58
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    When I say if I mean if. What you say would tend to lead anyone to expect you to hold socialist views. It's not an accusation - even these days. It is a reasonable deduction, nevertheless it is conditional.
    Read properly and the views are nmot socialist. Just because someone wants a fairer society with an economic system that works not directing most wealth into a few hands and does not create boom & busts and world-wide crashes that does not mean socialist. I want to roll back the state - and the Tories want Big Government. More of the same tripe.

    And I am neither confused nor am I stupid. At least not so stupid to take what others have said as proof of what they say. I can read The Times for myself thank you, and interpret same. I don’t need it regurgitated to me as gospel.
    Read:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
    Geonomics is an economic philosophy and ideology that holds that people own what they create, but that things found in nature, most importantly land, belong equally to all
    Now, you are seriously suggested that Land Value Tax is responsible or even a major contributor to Hong Kong’s wealth. Right, I see. How silly of me.
    Land tax is the core of it - you must be acting silly. It gives low income and corporation tax encouraging peopel to work as they keep most of their earnings and companies to set up. Honmg Kong is a fiorm of LVT as all land is leased out and owned by the state.

    ‘Wealth laying idle’ was at one time income was it not? and taxed as such? was it not?
    It is no coincidence that the riches people in the UK are parasites (economic term) who take in rent - landowers. Duke of Westminster, etc.

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    If Hyams had to pay full LVT on the land, the block would have been built ASAP, and not left idle for years on end. Look at what the USA is doing....and Auss, Tiawan, Denmark, USA, etc.
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    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  4. #59
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    I suspect I know the one(s) you mean. It's in a really great spot but would cost an arm and a leg to fix up but if you haven't got the money what can you do? Council can't buy it off you (they don't have the money to buy it or redevelop it). No one else can force you to sell it and you can't force people to buy it...

    Even if you could, what then? Nothing's changed. If it's the one I think it is, I can see how the rents achievable wouldn't pay for it ie., it's not viable. It's barely standing. I could be wrong and I'd like to do it myself but...

    The area is a bit of a wasteland (on one side), so it would be a case of waiting for the area to come up a bit or holding the redevelopment costs till it did. Who can do that? Chicken and Egg.

    BTW I think students bring economic activity to an area and to the city. The more that come here and stay on after graduation, the better. Our friends down the East Lancs have achieved a lot this way.

    Perhaps if time limits were put on making places habitable, after all, it's not a million years ago it was a nursery, passing stringent regulations no doubt to be able to be one. After which there would be penalties with the most extreme being a handover to the council as it's they after all who take the criticism of thoroughfares into the city looking grubby and uninviting. Maybe a cpo based on its dilapidated condition then the likes of Maghull developments wouldn't just let them fall down so they can then build anew - without the VAT penalty etc. Look what happened to Jamica House on the corner of Dale st/Vernon st and what also happened not long ago to the oldest property on Dale st on the corner of Cheapside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    Hyams may well have not paid tax on Centrepoint until he realised its increase in value. I think that is rather the point of a tax on income is it not? For sure he spent a great deal of money on all the tradesmen needed to build it. **** him.
    You really do not get it. No matter what he spent his money on in tradesmen, he stopped the lot because he could make even more doing NOTHING at all for about 8 years. He was not making productive use of the land - our land, our commonwealth. The Queen owns all a land in the UK.

    Harry Hyams wanted to demolish the Albert Dock, the largest collection of listed buildings in the UK to built cheap London Docklands like tat -like Peel are offering in Liverpool Waters. Hyams? Peel? No different.

    It’s a stretch but since it occurs to me... much like the Empire State perhaps. All those workers, working away in a depression, getting paid - what a fool Hoover was to create all that wealth and spread it around a bit! And no doubt there was and is a tax bill down the line.
    Hoover? He is famous for the Hoovervilles - shanty towns in the US depression. Roosevelt got things moving. There are shanty towns in the USA again as foreclosure has thrown millions out of their homes. Many shanty towns overlook empty homes.

    Look at:


    The USA went into major government funded infrastructure building like dams, as did Germany with its autobahns.

    And how dare you buy land near a railway line, with money taken from your taxes for the benefit of all it serves. Outrageous!
    Those near Crossrail stations experience a 60% increase for doing NOTHING. Cornwall taxpayers paid towards Crossrail and do not use it. The houses near the stations increase in value giving windfalls to those landowners - which people who do not use Crossrail contributed to. It is not difficult to understand. Read the Welsh MPs transcript again and understand what he is saying and Wales is no different to England or Scotland. Those that benefitted from Croassrail paid for it - the paid the whole £20 billion? Wow...

    If the land was taxed by its value whether built upon or not there would be no vacant buildings in Everton. Experience all over the world has proven that. I never made it up.

    And if taking tax at source is regressive (and it may well be) how does a wealth tax help?
    Taxing people's earning at source is 100% regressive. It penalizes the wealth creators. Those who should not be penalized. "A tax on land value has been described by many as a
    progressive tax, since it would be paid primarily by the wealthy, and would reduce income inequality." Vince Cable is trying to get something sensible into a government that economically knows sweet nothing. LVT reclaims community crated wealth to pay for community services. It is lauded as brilliant for funding infrastructure - Hong Kong built a metro using it.

    The depletion of 'wealth' to pay tax has a long and regrettably regressive history in this country
    Not so. You confuse taxing income at source from high earners - the wealth creators -from taking from taxing wealth. And ever since we have had boom & busts and world-wide crashes, and poverty in an age of amazing technical advancement has not gone away. For e.g., in the USA the top 1% own more wealth that the bottom 90%. Something is clearly very wrong and deep-root analysis will point to land and its resources.

    BTW, Winston Churchill was great supporter of Land Valuation Taxation -the finest speeches supporting LVT were made by him. He was in the government that caused the 1909 ructions in the House of Lords, which the Welsh MP mentions in the Assembly debate.

    However, without a market there can be no wealth and no income whether the owner holds it or tries to flog it for threepence. Without a market, it is worth nothing. There is no wealth to tax. When there is income there will be something to tax. Geddit?
    I got the free-market when I was about 13. Your last sentence is 100% incorrect.

    Incidentally the empty house owner in Everton does not pay zero tax. If he’s lucky his community charge is discounted.
    It it is uninhabitable he pays ZERO. Yet the land can stay idle for decades and then he can make a killing selling the land. As Mark Twain said..."buy land they not not making any more". That land speculator in Everton keeps that land from being used productively...and creating an eyesore...and abusing the architectural culture of the city. In times gone by you could not own land unless you used it productively. If you stopped using it to reverted back to the community. Ever since we have treated land like a saleable commodity, like a washing machine, the world's economy has gone haywire. Land is like nothing else you can ever buy. BTW, I studied economics at degree level.

    Land Valuation Tax will clear up the derelict homes in Liverpool within a few years. Experience in the USA proves that so.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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