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Thread: Fontenoy / Hodson St station

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    Default Fontenoy / Hodson St station

    Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

    I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

    Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

    The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.


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    Last edited by Scouseinmanc; 10-03-2007 at 08:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouseinmanc View Post
    Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

    I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

    Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

    The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.
    It could be argued with justification, that Gt Howard St station, which was above the end of the tunnel, was served by the tunnel too. There was stairs down from the Gt Howard St station, which was in the open air at a higher level than the tunnel below, down to the Waterloo Goods depot which was at the end of the tunnel. So, the Waterloo Goods terminal was passenger and goods at one time - the way I understand it.

    When the Waterloo Goods Station was de-commissioned, the line was extended to the new Riverside station at the Pier Head, and the link to Gt Howard St station no more.

    It was mentioned that Hodson Street was a stop for workers. If so, then steps must have been there.

    St James' Station at Parliament St is similar to Hodson St as it is a cutting - semi underground station, which has conceptual plans for re-opening.
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    As I mentioned earlier, me and a few mates walked through this tunnel and though strewn with debris, prams, mattresses etc, the walls looked sheer to us and we could see the landings of Fonney Oy up above but no way out. I believe Gt Howard street station was used prior to the building of Exchange Station which was originally called Tithebarn Street Station for a few years until its name change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    As I mentioned earlier, me and a few mates walked through this tunnel and though strewn with debris, prams, mattresses etc, the walls looked sheer to us and we could see the landings of Fonney Oy up above but no way out. I believe Gt Howard street station was used prior to the building of Exchange Station which was originally called Tithebarn Street Station for a few years until its name change.
    Did Gt Howard St station continue operating after Exchange Station opened up in the centre? As I understand it Waterloo Goods depot had a passenger link. Was this so? If so, the depot was goods and passengers. When did the passenger link at the end of the tunnel stop? When the goods depot was demolished in the 1800s?
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    I don't know if Gt Howard street station was a passenger railway as well as goods but I don't think it was stopped being used as a goods yard after the opening of Exchange as i'm sure i've seen it in books still operating after Exchange opened, though I would expect that if Gt Howard street did take passengers then this service would have been transfered to Exchange once opened. I met a couple of lads at last years model railway exhibition who had a cracking model of the Crown st sidings, complete with Myrtle Gardens above and who are working on a large scale model of Lime st including the Bullring and the Great North Western Hotel for next years exhibition, they will probably know so i'll email them. One of the lads, Mike Delamar was on here a while back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    I don't know if Gt Howard street station was a passenger railway as well as goods but I don't think it was stopped being used as a goods yard after the opening of Exchange as i'm sure i've seen it in books still operating after Exchange opened, though I would expect that if Gt Howard street did take passengers then this service would have been transfered to Exchange once opened. I met a couple of lads at last years model railway exhibition who had a cracking model of the Crown st sidings, complete with Myrtle Gardens above and who are working on a large scale model of Lime st including the Bullring and the Great North Western Hotel for next years exhibition, they will probably know so i'll email them. One of the lads, Mike Delamar was on here a while back.
    Thanks Ged. All that is a haze as the Waterloo Goods depot was demolished in the 1800s I was under the impression Gt Howard St was above on the viaduct and was passenger only with steps access to the Waterloo Good Depot below, which meant that the Goods depot was goods and passenger at one time.

    I have seen no artists impressions, or photos of the Waterloo Goods Depot, which was historical in itself. I was under the impression it was all under a roof.

    I recall its sister at Park Lane, at the end of the Wapping Tunnel, which was in operation until around 1971/72.

    The most impressive rail Goods Depot was the Cheshire Lines goods Terminal at Sefton St at Brunswick Dock. A very large, well made, good looking building, that was demolished around 1976.

    Out of these goods depots, at the front, MDHB trains would cross the Dock Rd and run under the Overhead railway taking cargos to and from the various docks. Small three wheel unit Scamell articulator trucks would be buzzing around everywhere in and out of the docks and goods yards.
    Last edited by Waterways; 10-03-2007 at 02:12 PM.
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    its good to see more discussions about this lost waterloo tunnel station my site www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk has a page on it please feel free to look its still under construction i still have loads to add to each page but hodson station did exsist iam 100% certain it was very hidden as the area as we know it today is very open but before the area was redevloped that cutting was quite hidden when fontenoy garderns are around the station was accsesed by stairs they started where the electricity orange brick hut is now and down onto the platforms where a woodern station hut was also of course this station was mostly used by workers and trains did not stop here much and it didnt last long as a station but lets not forget it as it was a station and will soon be again thanks to merseyrail as for the other stations on the waterloo tunnel line it had hodson station, edge hill, riverside, waterloo goods and great howard street as great howard street station as used as a goods yard after exchange station opened i have photos somewhere traces of great howard street station, waterloo goods station, hodson station and riverside station are still there today

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    Quote Originally Posted by oritelad View Post
    its good to see more discussions about this lost waterloo tunnel station my site www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk has a page on it please feel free to look its still under construction i still have loads to add to each page but hodson station did exsist iam 100% certain it was very hidden as the area as we know it today is very open but before the area was redevloped that cutting was quite hidden when fontenoy garderns are around the station was accsesed by stairs they started where the electricity orange brick hut is now and down onto the platforms where a woodern station hut was
    Wooden platforms? No trace of platforms in that tunnel.

    also of course this station was mostly used by workers and trains did not stop here much and it didnt last long as a station but lets not forget it as it was a station and will soon be again thanks to merseyrail
    I don't think it is earmarked to be re-commissioned. Maybe on a wish list that is about all. The population around there is just not heavy enough to support a station.

    as for the other stations on the waterloo tunnel line it had hodson station, edge hill, riverside, waterloo goods and great howard street. As great howard street station as used as a goods yard after exchange station opened i have photos somewhere traces of great howard street station, waterloo goods station, hodson station and riverside station are still there today
    So Gt Howard St was passenger, then a goods yard supplementing the Waterloo Goods Depot adjacent?
    Last edited by Waterways; 10-03-2007 at 02:54 PM.
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    I maintain I did not see any access from that Byrom st cutting to ground level but I may be wrong, there was a lot of bushes growing out of the wall etc. Also I have pictures of that cutting during the building and demolition of Fontenoy Gardens and there's no trace of any access to below shown but if it was a station i'd guess that it may have been defunct by the mid 30s anyway?
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    The following is by Naomi Evetts from the Alan Godfrey reprint of the 1906 OS map.

    "In 1848 the Lancs & Yorks Railway opened the line between Liverpool and Wigan, Bolton, Bury & Rochdale. There was a temporary passenger terminus at Great Howard Street but the line was extended and the Tithebarn Street Station opened in 1850. This was re-built and re-opened as Exchange Station in 1888."

    Great Howard Street station was built on the site of a Gaol, and became a goods station.

    GHS and Exchange are the only stations on the 1906 map, which covers north Liverpool from London Road, and includes Everton, Scotland Road and Vauxhall Road.

    Riverside Station (not on this map) opened in 1895.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 10-03-2007 at 03:21 PM.

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    Thanks Philip for clarification. Now we need to establish if the legendary or perhaps mythical Hodson street station ever existed.
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    The Waterloo Tunnel is the only railway anywhere near Hodson Street, and, as it passes under Hodson Street (between Byrom St & Fontenoy St) it emerges from its tunnel. It isn't marked as a station on the 1906 map, although it would be the obvious access point.

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    What were the purpose of these wide cuttings such as Byrom st or the one on the Lime street line by the bullring, the bullring one wasn't a station so was it just for access, otherwise a shaft like Norton st would suffice for steam/smoke. I know the similar James st wide cutting was a station. I don't think it is fact yet that the Hodson street cutting was a station and it doesn't appear on the disused stations site though that also doesn't mean it wasn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    What were the purpose of these wide cuttings such as Byrom st or the one on the Lime street line by the bullring, the bullring one wasn't a station so was it just for access, otherwise a shaft like Norton st would suffice for steam/smoke. I know the similar James st wide cutting was a station. I don't think it is fact yet that the Hodson street cutting was a station and it doesn't appear on the disused stations site though that also doesn't mean it wasn't.
    See my other post on the Lime St cuttings. The Waterloo Goods Depot closed down in the 1880s/90s, or was converted to a yard rather than a covered building (need clarification on that). Rail traffic was coming in via the north, so maybe the Waterloo Goods yard was made redundant for goods.

    Hodson St station could have closed down at the same time or even earlier if no business was there - or the passenger trains were getting in the way of full goods trains. And you are right to point out why there was a long and wide cutting at Hodson St, when just shafts coped elsewhere. And yes the St. James' station cutting gives a good clue to station usage

    Ged, I think you mean St. James' station.
    Last edited by Waterways; 10-03-2007 at 04:24 PM.
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    Yes, sorry St. James not James st

    It's interesting to me about this Hodson street mystery because I hung around there but obviously not in the late 1800s though some might disagree.

    I'll kick myself if I find out there were steps up out of there, we had to walk for what seemed like miles.
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    Apart from the wall facing Great Howard Street, the other 3 walls of the goods station (on the 1906 OS map) are shown as dotted lines.
    I don't know what dotted lines indicate, but guess that, are far as stations were concerned there were no walls.
    (The rear of Exchange where the trains entered is a dotted line).
    The site of GHS is shaded, which (I think) indicates a roof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Apart from the wall facing Great Howard Street, the other 3 walls of the goods station (on the 1906 OS map) are shown as dotted lines.
    I don't know what dotted lines indicate, but guess that, are far as stations were concerned there were no walls.
    (The rear of Exchange where the trains entered is a dotted line).
    The site of GHS is shaded, which (I think) indicates a roof.
    "Dotted lines if iam correct show tunnels on old railway maps".

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_142 View Post
    "Dotted lines if iam correct show tunnels on old railway maps".
    Perhaps, but I was referring to the Ordnance Survey maps where they indicate open access to a roofed area.

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    The Byrom Street cutting rubbish.
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    The cuttings either side of Hodson Street. Pic by Freddy O'Connor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouseinmanc View Post
    Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

    I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

    Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

    The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.
    Hi

    I am new to the forum so forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.

    I have seen statements made that people are 100% certain that these stations existed on this line. What is the proof?

    I have never seen anything on maps, official railway company plans, board of trade inspection returns, railway company committee minutes etc so am intrigued.

    Regards

    Mike Turner

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewturner View Post
    Hi

    I am new to the forum so forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.

    I have seen statements made that people are 100% certain that these stations existed on this line. What is the proof?

    I have never seen anything on maps, official railway company plans, board of trade inspection returns, railway company committee minutes etc so am intrigued.

    Regards

    Mike Turner
    The cutting is way too large for ventilation and is station sized. This naturally makes people think there was a station there. I have a hunch provision was put for one in case when the tunnel was being cut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The cutting is way too large for ventilation and is station sized. This naturally makes people think there was a station there. I have a hunch provision was put for one in case when the tunnel was being cut.
    Ah well if that's the reason I can clear this up. The cutting was wide because that was the location of the runaway catch points. The one on the line to Waterloo ran off towards the wall. The one on the line to Edge Hill ran off between the running lines hence they would be set at a wider interval.

    Mike Turner

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    backing up what Mike has said

    there was never a station there, it must be stuff of legend,

    and any opening does act like a ventilation shaft, like the ex cheshire lines tunnels between walton and kirkdale. they where designed with this smoke in mind, especially any long tunnel on a steep gradient like this.

    the tunnel is not deep enough underground to warrant an actual shaft/chimney.

    Mike

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    Hello Mike. Got a message off Chris about your show, can't wait to see the Lime st model, are you getting the echo down?
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    alrite Ged, we usually do but they come down too late to make a difference.


    Mike

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    I mean as some publicity before the show, not that you need it judging by last time. A 45ft model including the Gt North Western hotel and the Station etc should be well touted up beforehand.
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    do you know anyone from the Echo Ged? to get some publicity going? your coming with your model again arnt you?


    Mike

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    Yes on both counts, try Peter Grant who does the 'Flashback' feature in Saturday nights echo - since it's a model of Lime street station of yesteryear
    petergrant@liverpoolecho.co.uk you can mention me (Gerard Gardens model and In a city living books)
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    cheers mate, ill do that

    Mike

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