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    Senior Member Norm NZ's Avatar
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    Post The riots!

    Got this link sent to me today, after a discussion with a few people re the UK riots: Makes one think this guy could be on the right track! unfortunatly.


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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    How strange , I had always believed that Adolf hadn't fathered any children.....how wrong I was.

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    Senior Member Marty1's Avatar
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    I'm sure many of us think a bit like him at times !

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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    It's a funny old world, this, the world in which we all live.

    A world where an individual's own ignorant and blinkered view gives them, as if by right, a platform from which to spout there own brand of venom and a stage upon which they can act out and externalise their inner anxiety and sense of loss and a screen in every home from which they can display and replay the drama of their individual frenzy about dreams unrealised, promises unkept and a future that holds out nothing but more of the same, an eternal action replay, a tape-loop of self delusion, self deceit and -if not mute- then dumb reliance on someone else sorting out what should be someone else's problems.

    Whether I speak of the rioters or the 'respectable' ranters is for the reader to decide for themself.

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1 View Post
    I'm sure many of us think a bit like him at times !

    I agree with you ,many of us do think a bit like him at times but thank god it's only a bit.

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    Senior Member Marty1's Avatar
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    I agree with you ,many of us do think a bit like him at times but thank god it's only a bit.
    He is extreme in his views and we may not agree with everything he may say but he does have a right to express them. It is at times like these that our attitudes harden even though we might understand the problems of the youth of today.

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1 View Post
    He is extreme in his views and we may not agree with everything he may say but he does have a right to express them. It is at times like these that our attitudes harden even though we might understand the problems of the youth of today.
    Most definitely he should have a right to express them, and we should be seen to express and act upon our dislike for his extremist views.That's why I tried to draw an analogy with Adolph H, who's extremism was allowed to flourish when a gullible and worried public looking for a quick fix were only too eager to concur with his hardline attitude..

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    Senior Member GeorgePorgie's Avatar
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    The point is these riots would not have taken place if this teenager had not been carrying a gun and therefore would still be alive.

    At the end of the day it had nothing to do with the lies from the officers involved it was all down to a youth carrying an illegal weapon in this country and knowing it was illegal and has now faced the consequences.

    Police carrying guns is no different than a soldier entering a war zone if joe public is carrying a gun and its seen then its down to the soldier to determine whether its his life or the or joe publics,I have no sympathy for those who carry such weapons and deserve what comes with the territory they put themselves in.

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    GP, If you mean Mark Duggan , who was shot and killed in Tottenham, he was 29 yrs old.
    I agree with you..."I have no sympathy for those who carry such weapons and deserve what comes with the territory they put themselves in. "
    However, we cannot be certain ...."The point is these riots would not have taken place if this teenager had not been carrying a gun and therefore would still be alive"

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    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oudeis View Post
    It's a funny old world, this, the world in which we all live.

    A world where an individual's own ignorant and blinkered view gives them, as if by right, a platform from which to spout there own brand of venom and a stage upon which they can act out and externalise their inner anxiety and sense of loss and a screen in every home from which they can display and replay the drama of their individual frenzy about dreams unrealised, promises unkept and a future that holds out nothing but more of the same, an eternal action replay, a tape-loop of self delusion, self deceit and -if not mute- then dumb reliance on someone else sorting out what should be someone else's problems.

    Whether I speak of the rioters or the 'respectable' ranters is for the reader to decide for themself.
    Good post Oudeis and very true.

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    Senior Member GeorgePorgie's Avatar
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    GP, If you mean Mark Duggan , who was shot and killed in Tottenham, he was 29 yrs old.
    I agree with you..
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    Senior Member Marty1's Avatar
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    That's why I tried to draw an analogy with Adolph H, who's extremism was allowed to flourish when a gullible and worried public looking for a quick fix were only too eager to concur with his hardline attitude..
    I fully understood the analogy that you wished to draw grekko and yes we should all express our dislike of extremist views, unless that is, we hold the same views !

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1 View Post
    I fully understood the analogy that you wished to draw grekko and yes we should all express our dislike of extremist views, unless that is, we hold the same views !

    No argument with that Marty.

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    Senior Member Prefrab's Avatar
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    Mark Duggan recieved the ultmate sanction for carrying an illegal firearm, the Police officers involved will recieve whatever sanction the laws of this land require after the due process of law is completed. That days actions by everyone, may well see many more lives destroyed.

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Mmm...reactionary yeh,but understandable! Would anyone here debate the semantics,if it was their shop,house,car,burnt out? Or even worse, a friend or relative killed!
    Hitler,I think,was a product of his own particular scenario,it could have been anyone,with a mouth!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie View Post
    The point is these riots would not have taken place if this teenager had not been carrying a gun and therefore would still be alive.
    Hi George

    Sorry, George, I don't agree with you.

    The fact that a lot of people are scratching their heads about the reasons for the riots and there are heated debates about what needs to be done, shows I think that the initial cause of the riots could have been anything.

    The other aspect that shows the causes of the riots were deeper rooted than just the shooting is the fact that they spread in such a copycat fashion. Another initial cause could happen, whatever it might be, and another spate of violence could occur just the same -- except of course that the police and the communities, presumably, would be better prepared.

    The guy in the video has a point. I don't much like what he has to say but it appears to me that he characterizes the people involved in the looting and vandalism very well. I also agree with him that drugs have a lot to do with the sickness in society and with the "don't care" mentality and lack of respect of the youth of today. I see the same thing here in the United States with callous teenagers and young adults preying on their elders, so it's not just a British problem.

    Best regards

    Chris
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    Senior Member GeorgePorgie's Avatar
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    The fact that a lot of people are scratching their heads about the reasons for the riots and there are heated debates about what needs to be done, shows I think that the initial cause of the riots could have been anything.
    We'll have to agree to disagree then,Chris....the fact it was a black youth with a gun and the black youths kicked up a stink,this was the same with the tocky riots....think they called it harrasment....pile of sh*te.

    If they want to be heard then take the anger to the house of commons or 10 downing street ie march in numbers,don't go friggin my town up just for a smash and grab what yer can rampage.

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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi George

    Isn't part of the point though that such kids don't want to work within the system? They'd rather tear it down and take advantage of it, suck the rest of us dry. Mmmmmmmm.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie View Post
    this was the same with the tocky riots....think they called it harrasment....pile of sh*te.
    Nice to know you can give a reasoned answer

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    Senior Member John Doh's Avatar
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    It seems you lot are still at it - taking the police version of events (Mk II) as the true one, this despite the fact that their original (Mk I) version - that there had been an exchange of fire - has now been totally discredited! Are you really prepared to go on believing this account for the next 30 years, after which the truth finally becomes available to all?

    Incidentally, it does rather look as if the Met are still operating along the lines that Merseyside Police were in the '80s. Ironically, kids in Toxteth are not being stopped and searched now in the way they were then; the same cannot be said for young blacks in London. That's well known there - and that's what triggered the riots.

    The effect here may have been a copycat one, but it doesn't mean we don't need to look for other, different, underlying causes here too!

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    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    I can't speak for what happens in London, but it's right what John says about the underlying reasons for the riots of the 80's in Liverpool. At the time, the stop and search methods were used with a very heavy hand.

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    I never thought I'd see the day I'd be thinking ...hmmm, that Tony Blair,seems to be talking a lot of sense..........but after reading a little of what he's been saying in today's Observer, I've got to admit that I think he's on the right track ....anyone else had a "blaired" conversion?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/au...ots-tony-blair

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    Senior Member Marty1's Avatar
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    No matter how heavy the hand it does not give anyone the right to riot in our streets. We often want to look for reasons as to why the riots started, there are so many expert views it often becomes a confused mess. When crime is high we want the polices to react, we want them to do something about it, that's why we employ them, then we condem them for being to heavy handed. I don't know why the riots started but I do know that if we don't have discipline in our society, at all levels, then we will get more of the same !

    But the truth is that many of these people are from families that are profoundly dysfunctional, operating on completely different terms from the rest of society, either middle class or poor.
    This quote in Blairs article I agree with !

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Without agreeing one way,or the other....isn't/wasn't "stop and search" a reaction to complaints from society,in general,about the increase in crime rates? It's implementation might well have been over the top,in some situations,but surely many,intended it to be that way,even if it was only passively?

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    This might be over simplified and possibly a generalisation but I see what led to the 1981 riots it in this order. Black immigration into Liverpool - ghettoised by the council - Ethnic minorities are isolated both in integration and employment wise. Due to this and in some cases possibly due to a natural culture anyway, drugs become a problem. No jobs = no money, no future, no aspirations = crime to support drugs and the cost of just living. It becomes a no go area - locals who are not of that ilk complain. The police clamp down - more times than not overly zealously including racism - a vicious circle grows - it's us and them.

    Fast forward to 2011 and generally there is a wider void between the rich and poor. If you've no job and want a car, flatscreen tv or computer - and drugs - crime pays for it. There is a breakdown in communities as to 30 years ago. Divorce rates up, one parent families up. The shelves are filled with glossy magazines, Sky channels fill us likewise with what the haves have got and the have nots will never have. Cribs, XFactor quick rich schemes, Big brother joe soaps being idolised. Lottery millionaires every week, footballers on 100k a week - actors likewise but not only that z list wannabes. The greedy bankers are bailed out for billions for doing their jobs wrong. Mps are at it - the world's gone mad. Wars we shouldn't be in for greed, oil and land. A guy is killed in Tottenham - his family didn't want or ask for riots but it's a good excuse. The copycat riots elsewhere we just an opportunity to get in on the act or seem subserviant to the powers that be - nothing more than yob culture by the few - the very few really. The police are seen as the Government, the authority that's why they're given grief but in reality, in 2011 the police probably seem far removed from their employers than ever given their cuts too. 1981 and 2011 were 2 totally different scenarios.
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    Diane Louise Diane Louise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1 View Post
    No matter how heavy the hand it does not give anyone the right to riot in our streets. We often want to look for reasons as to why the riots started, there are so many expert views it often becomes a confused mess. When crime is high we want the polices to react, we want them to do something about it, that's why we employ them, then we condem them for being to heavy handed. I don't know why the riots started but I do know that if we don't have discipline in our society, at all levels, then we will get more of the same !



    This quote in Blairs article I agree with !
    I agree but the police are too heavy handed at times and I am thinking of that poor man who was pushed to the ground for nothing and died as a result.

    These louts should realise that if they riot the police will be able to deal with them effectively! Also many of their parents knew exactly where they were and what they were doing. Scum of the earth the lot of them!

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    Senior Member GeorgePorgie's Avatar
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    I'd rather have a police heavy handed state than a Martial Law one.

    Its about time the Curfew was imposed properly and stick to it.

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    This might be over simplified and possibly a generalisation but I see what led to the 1981 riots it in this order. Black immigration into Liverpool - ghettoised by the council - Ethnic minorities are isolated both in integration and employment wise. Due to this and in some cases possibly due to a natural culture anyway, drugs become a problem. No jobs = no money, no future, no aspirations = crime to support drugs and the cost of just living. It becomes a no go area - locals who are not of that ilk complain. The police clamp down - more times than not overly zealously including racism - a vicious circle grows - it's us and them.

    Fast forward to 2011 and generally there is a wider void between the rich and poor. If you've no job and want a car, flatscreen tv or computer - and drugs - crime pays for it. There is a breakdown in communities as to 30 years ago. Divorce rates up, one parent families up. The shelves are filled with glossy magazines, Sky channels fill us likewise with what the haves have got and the have nots will never have. Cribs, XFactor quick rich schemes, Big brother joe soaps being idolised. Lottery millionaires every week, footballers on 100k a week - actors likewise but not only that z list wannabes. The greedy bankers are bailed out for billions for doing their jobs wrong. Mps are at it - the world's gone mad. Wars we shouldn't be in for greed, oil and land. A guy is killed in Tottenham - his family didn't want or ask for riots but it's a good excuse. The copycat riots elsewhere we just an opportunity to get in on the act or seem subserviant to the powers that be - nothing more than yob culture by the few - the very few really. The police are seen as the Government, the authority that's why they're given grief but in reality, in 2011 the police probably seem far removed from their employers than ever given their cuts too. 1981 and 2011 were 2 totally different scenarios.
    I think that's a fairly good summary of events,and reactions,but, which could (not would) lead your average person to start looking for someone,or something, to put it "Right"..........enter the guy in the video,or someone like him, gaining power! (isn't that how Adolph did it??) then it's action,and reaction to more extreme levels,manipulated by those with their own agenda!

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    It's eleven of the clock and all's well.

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    Senior Member Marty1's Avatar
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    I know a young lad who today is joining the Army, he had little in the way of opportunities and was unemployed for some time, so he got off his arse and did something about it, he didn't riot or sell drugs, he is more typical of the youth of today than those yobs who did. With any luck he will have a career and a future, he knows that by next Christmas he may be in Afghanistan but that never deterred him, so lets not get lost over dicks who don't give a s**t and want to lay on their bums when their not selling drugs or killing each other.

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