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Thread: Planning decision on Liverpool Waters will be delayed until after Unesco inspection

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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Exclamation Planning decision on Liverpool Waters will be delayed until after Unesco inspection

    LIVERPOOL council will delay deciding whether a controversial £5.5bn skyscraper scheme should be given planning permission until Unesco inspectors have visited the city.


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    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Kev,
    I'll withdraw this link if it's off topic or already been posted.
    http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/...2534-29030050/

    PEEL THIS Chas
    The man who built Peel Holdings

    Chris Barry
    February 03, 2005
    Share Article | Submit Comments | Comments (1) | Printable Version Previous | Next
    WINDING DOWN?: John Whittaker

    JOHN Whittaker is a man who always gets what he wants. He has those critical virtues of success in spades, a vision for what he wants, shrewdness, patience, and tenacity.

    In the last three decades he has built an empire estimated at '900m, encompassing the Clydeside in Scotland to the Manchester Ship Canal, the burgeoning Liverpool John Lennon Airport and the Trafford Centre.

    The planned 1000p per share swoop on Mersey Docks adds the final piece in Whittaker's north west jigsaw, and will also add the Medway port in London and a container port in Dublin to his portfolio. Then there are plans for a racecourse and country park in Worsley.

    So what kind of man is he?

    A Manchester-based financier who has watched Whittaker's rise keenly says: "He is the arch deal-doer. He plays hard-ball, he never gives in and always gets what he wants in the end.

    "He has watched Mersey Docks like a hawk for at least the last year and has moved now because of the bid from the venture capitalist. I can't see him failing now.

    "He waited until he had taken Peel private last year before doing this, because it's easier to do a deal like this when you're not listed. "

    Integrated

    The observer, who did not wish to be named, said he felt that once Mersey was integrated into the Peel empire, Whittaker may chose to wind down his business life.

    "I think this will be his swansong in terms of major deals, and he has done a fair few - he had to fight for three years to get the Manchester Ship Canal Company, and the battle to build the Trafford Centre lasted for nearly 10 years and was an epic.

    "When he gets Mersey Docks it will take him three or four years to get the best out of it, and then he will probably want to hand over the reins to the next generation."

    Family is all important to John Whittaker, a tenacious and hard-working individual who guards his privacy keenly.

    He has four children, Mark, James, Kate and John. The eldest three all work for their father, while John, the youngest is at university.

    Centrepiece

    He was very close to his late parents John, who set up the property business, and May. His mother's car, a classic Mercedes convertible, was installed as the centrepiece of a display when the Trafford Centre opened.

    A strong Catholic faith underlies his business and private life. He has been separated from his wife, Patricia, for a number of years but is still legally married to her.

    He is also notoriously publicity shy - indeed, some say he's shy in private life too - and is said to be uncomfortable with strangers.

    However, he's recognised as one of the shrewedest minds in business.

    The bid for Mersey Docks completes a long-held ambition of forming one single business empire stretching from one end of the Mersey to the other.

    He's also shown himself adept at surrounding himself with formidable advisers - Robert Hough and Mike Butterworth being his key lieutenants for years.

    Wikiped info.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wh...an)#Early_life

    Robert Hough ~ Shifting shapes?
    http://www.salfordstar.com/article.a...&msg=Thank-You

    Mike Buterworth~ Dancing with the Devil?
    http://menmedia.co.uk/salfordadverti..._over_election

    Out-Daemons_Out
    Cheers,
    Chas

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    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    Personally, I've got nothing against it since it seems to be in an area that is so in need of regeneration.

    I don't think Unesco should be trying to stop it when you look at what is currently in the area, they should have been all over those black things by the liver building

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    I hope it's a case of the council just being tolerant and courtious and it's a message of 'Come and see and we'll show you it's not going to interfere with the World Heritage Site - and now bog off back home to London as it's the world we're wanting to impress - not you'.

    Now those black monstrosities are a different kettle of fish - they are on the WHS and if they got passed then I can't see the stink made over these, it's as though - oops we have to now.
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    U.N.E.S.C.O...............who cares,and who needs their approval of our city,anyway? I'm all for it,if it leads to regeneration,jobs,etc,but with some sensitivity!

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    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    This UNESCO thing has all come about due to a complaint to English Heritage (incidentally the north west office is in Manchester, not that I'm being paranoid) by Wayne Colquhooun of the Liverpool Preservation Trust, which doesnt appear to be a trust at all, just alone man blog to further his own opinions. Bizarre that one man can threaten to get all this investment pulled, Peel have fingers in pies across the north and may well take their 5 billion elsewhere.

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    Eloquently put. Colquhooun is known throughout Liverpool business and council circles as a nutcase and on his blog he states how the new museum has been nominated as a carbuncle but fails to inform any viewer that it is he himself who has done this due to his own agenda.

    Having a World heritage tag brings no recordable monetary value to the area, tourists will come anyway, not because they've read it's a WHS. If it's a straight choice - the council should just give them 2 fingers. So Canary wharf is ok but let's see what we can possibly do to delay your schemes...... How come is taking them until the autumn to come and take a look and then until next summer before they have a meeting about it - it's not like it'll take long to say yay or nay is it - and have you seen the state of the UNESCO HQ.
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    DONT BUILD IT
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    What shall we build? Or shall we leave it as it is?

    Genuine question, as the people on the Vauxhall tours were over the moon when this was just at the proposal stage a few years ago. I think it would be seen as another council flop if it was all to fall apart for them now.

    25,000 jobs over the lifespan of the project too - from construction to habitation.
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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Build something else. No more bloomin towers.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    But nothing else is planned - no-one has an alternative on the table. What view will they spoil along the Central docks - won't they only enhance the view when coming down the river? These are nowhere near the 3 graces you know - even further along than Waterloo Apartments past ToyrUs and Costco - facing the Vulcan studios.

    As far as towers go, they are hardly USA height either
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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    I hate towers.

    If they keep building them I will move away.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Eh, I don't mean thanks you will move away ha ha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouse smurf View Post
    Personally, I've got nothing against it since it seems to be in an area that is so in need of regeneration.

    I don't think Unesco should be trying to stop it when you look at what is currently in the area, they should have been all over those black things by the liver building
    Yeah, they didn't complain about the black square and the mueseum that doesn't fit in with the area and the black boxes block the view of the graces from the Albert dock side!
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Eh, I don't mean thanks you will move away ha ha.
    HA HA HA
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Anyone on here ever heard of a place called Dresden?
    Well that same place told Unesco to take their WHS parchment and shove it and from what I've been able to discover it hasn't harmed Dresden. It isn't as if this bunch of self-congratulatory "wisemen " give anything other than a title to any site, but they take plenty in order to fund their worldwide jolly jaunts. Leeches as far as I'm concerned ,and the sooner they and The Liverpool Preservation Crust do a flit the better in my opinion.
    Lets try and get this City moving upwards again without beardoes and weirdoes telling us what's best for us.

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    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Smile Devout Buccaneers~Peel & Co.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    But nothing else is planned - no-one has an alternative on the table. What view will they spoil along the Central docks - won't they only enhance the view when coming down the river? These are nowhere near the 3 graces you know - even further along than Waterloo Apartments past ToyrUs and Costco - facing the Vulcan studios.

    As far as towers go, they are hardly USA height either
    I lived in the past,
    While ahead rang out,
    Land ahoy, make haste,
    I still had my doubts,
    Still strapped to the mast,
    On the sea's line I stared,
    at the spillage and wreckage,
    of devout buccaneers.
    Chas

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    Heck... the UNESCO description is from 2004.

    http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1150/m...ue_number=1331

    It (the UN fiefdoms) just shows a spot for future govt. spending savings...

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    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Thanks Az-gila,
    For steering me to the UNESCO pages. Too much info to comment on now.
    UNESCO and the government are just smoke clouds. The immediate threat being Peel and cronies. My family history stretches throughout the Everton area. From some vantage points you could see right over the Mersey. Cobbled streets, yes, but no speed bumps. Some housing was poorly built and others did suffer war damage, but a good deal of the housing could have been retained. Everton was used as an example in social engineering on a vast scale. Most high rises from that era have been demolished. Good riddance.But we're now left with a sprawling landscape of ?....I can only say I can see the rising city properties, Ged's right, like USA but on a small scale.
    I've no idea what to do on the Vauxhall waterfront, but there's an old saying, " Marry in haste, repent at leisure." I'm sure Forum members and other Merseysiders will have many.
    The proposed marriage between Peel and Merseyside has reached the point where the priest says " If anyone objects to this marriage proceeding, let him speak now, or forever be silent." I'm at the back of the chapel but I'm shouting as hard as I can "NO".
    Sometimes bearded but Always weirded,
    Chas

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by grekko View Post
    Anyone on here ever heard of a place called Dresden?
    Well that same place told Unesco to take their WHS parchment and shove it and from what I've been able to discover it hasn't harmed Dresden. It isn't as if this bunch of self-congratulatory "wisemen " give anything other than a title to any site, but they take plenty in order to fund their worldwide jolly jaunts. Leeches as far as I'm concerned ,and the sooner they and The Liverpool Preservation Crust do a flit the better in my opinion.
    Lets try and get this City moving upwards again without beardoes and weirdoes telling us what's best for us.
    Hi Grekko,
    Dresden suffered more casualties than Hiroshima, but of course you knew that didn't you. 24 hour bombing by Britain and the USA. People dying for lack of oxygen. The city was a demolition site in 1945. It probably did merit an award for post war recovery.
    I've never gave any credibility to UNESCO so unfortunately I'll have to agree with you.
    No opinion on Liverpool Preservation Society, try googling it!
    Peas, love, Hari Tishoo,
    Chas

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Healthy debate/opinions - loving it!!!

    Some things I picked up on from your post Chas.

    You describe Peel as 'the immediate threat'. I would have to say that is a strange description for a private business who want to plough billions into a decimated area at their own cost, enhancing a low level innocuous skyline and bringing listed docks ans ancillary buildings back into use in the process - oh, and ofcourse creating much need employment - in the thousands.

    You mention how the view of Everton once was. Before your time and going off prints from the 1800s and before, we could say that the era you were growing up in spoilt what was there previously but that is progress. People inhabit and require abodes. The city lost a massive population and now it's being encouraged back. Build and they will come - Liverpool is not the barnpot it was in the 80s - we cannot live on protecting views alone. In any case, many I know think the view from Everton looking down towards the revitalised city centre and it's skyscrapers beyond is now better than ever but that is all subjective of course and hey guess what - you can still see the Welsh mountains and hills beyond so nothing is obscured.

    'Marry in haste' might have been relevant if the site they want to build on had only been cleared 6 months ago but it's been like that for decades so how long do we wait. How long do we deprive the people living in the area of somewhere of their own where they don't have to walk a mile South to see some life. Will the kids who live in Vauxhall today be saying to their kids in 20 years time 'There was once a grand proposal for this area son but the powers that be put the blocks on it - it's been like this now since I was a boy' How backward thinking that boy would think those powers that be were.

    Liverpool preservation trust is not even a trust but a one man blog from a guy living in the past. Now, living in the past is something I could be accused of with my site heavily loaded in that direction, my model of a tenement block demolished 25 years ago and my books recall past pleasures but let's face it. We've not got a Mr Barclay Walker, a Mr William Brown or a Mr James Picton nor the funds to build replicas of our fine civic buildings. Each era has its own architectural style and it so happens that the styles being presented now, whilst looking radical, are statements in theri own right and are no more bizarre than what was offered up when Oriel Chambers and the Liver Buildings were erected - and both castigated. Live in the past with our memories and by all means preserve our Georgian and Victorian heritage but we cannot be a living museum.
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    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Thanks Ged,
    For responding and reiterating your position. From past posts your feelings are very clear although a bit too optimistic ( I think).
    Apart from the short term construction jobs there's little merit in the scheme. Peel keeps it's cards well guarded from all reports I've seen. Even the construction clause may not guarantee Merseyside jobs. I'll have to resort to newspaper reports for this part of my post, I'm afraid. Peel have been described as "Empire builders" and Merseyside as "the last piece in the jigsaw". The Peel empire started in Manchester, "shrewdly" got the BBC to move to "Media City", and now wants to finish the "jigsaw".
    Joining the dots I see one outcome. Apartment blocks priced so high they are beyond the reach of most people. But most people aren't in the Peel loop, it's selling "rooms with a view" - second homes for the "elite". Wouldn't be surprised if the proposed development in Vauxhall becomes known as "Manc- hall"

    All "----" are meant to be sarcastic, No offense meant to you, Ged, you love this city, you speak with your heart and mind, and so you should.
    I actually like "futuristic" looking buildings in the right settings, Merseyside's landscape has been tore down and rebuilt so many times in my lifetime, this looks like another disaster waiting to happen. All my questions are aimed at the mysterious Peel organization.

    Best wishes,
    Chas
    Last edited by chasevans; 07-27-2011 at 01:40 PM. Reason: vauxhall

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Thanks Chas, it's good to see an alternative view to that of my own.

    'Optimistic' - not whilst indecision like we're experiencing exists, hopefully logic will win over.

    'Short term construction jobs' - take a look at how long the plan is for building - i'll be dead by the time it's finished never mind you

    Peel being guarded - they cannot be by law. The proposals and plans are public knowledge - isn't that what's causing the stink from the preservation trust cough cough.

    Jobs are jobs and residents are residents locals or not - they still have to spend into the local economy. I was not worried that the first dozen voices I heard down at the Pier Head last Sunday were Spanish or Geordie, I felt proud that they wanted to be here at all - they wouldn't have been in 1980.

    I don't see many Mancs moaning about Media City or Salford Quays, I remember the place I used to have to visit up there in the early 80s, it was derelict like our Albert Dock of the 70s - unrecognisable now, forward thinking. The Mancs are possibly loving our indecision.

    I wonder how many people who don't like the plans actually live in the area. It is not city centre so not a place one would have to visit involuntary - just a thought, a seed planted by a resident from the area I was talking to last night.
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    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    The urban engineering planners (those who know better than us......) pushed for, and built high rise blocks in the 60's.

    They were not a sucess and many (most?) have been pulled down and replaced by low residences.

    Will this "tower love" go the same way? What is really different now? Do the folks in the city centre really want to live in ultra-high density buildings?

    Perhaps some sort of middle ground would stand up better in the long term? Medium height buildings that don't dominate but may be "easier" to actually live in....

    Do the city centre residents really want that many people packed into a small area?

    Just some random thoughts...

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    Cool Staying calmer than the Mersey on a July day

    I go by media reports (not always the best source, but it's all we have). The "Empire" &"jigsaw" part of my last post came from a regional newspaper emphasizing how shrewd the Peel main man has been in business dealings. When I hear shrewd I think of Arthur Daley.
    Jobs are jobs and residents are residents, local or not? Well, well, well........I disagree. I thought the whole point was improving Liverpool for the locals.
    There are feelings revealed here that speak volumes. But the lure of money hides at the heart of your argument. Not a good enough reason for me Ged, but business has always been business.
    I see it differently. Merseyside has a future without Peel. Regeneration from within - not capitulation to the Manchester carpetbaggers.I don't pretend to offer any solutions but I don't want to "look back in anger" on another planning blunder.
    About Mancs - I do recall ( Anthony) Tony Wilson's contempt for Liverpool when he repeated a joke about our city and the East Lancs Road. Manchester's a dark hole that will always stand in Liverpool's shadow. I don't envy Mancunians, their council handing over the reins to Peel who quietly ran away with the silverware.

    I admit to not living in the Vauxhall area. I live in Anfield, my heart lives in Everton and the Vauxhall Vaults was once a favourite watering hole, I could tell many tales of the Vauxhall area, I'll leave it at that.

    Cheers,
    Chas
    Last edited by chasevans; 07-27-2011 at 06:31 PM. Reason: look back

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    Junior Member Harry's Avatar
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    No more towers!
    There's only about 4 for god's sake.
    No more red brick crap more like.

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    I know of a shop in the Met Quarter that caters for the wags and the like, it probably prices out most of the Liverpool lasses though or so you'd think to hear the pessimists. Not only do I know of plenty of local girls who have bought from there but it also employs our scouse girls. That's why when I hear these shops in the Met and L1 and these skyscrapers are not built for the likes of us, I squirm.

    This is why the clubs and the restaurants in the Albert Dock are always full, despite pricey VIP areas and private booths that you pay extra for. I honestly think some people don't give our free spending vibrant city life younger population the credit or kudos they deserve. They don't want to sit in old man corner pubs from 8 until 2. They party at home and don't even hit the town until midnight.

    So - let's leave the bomb sites and derelict land for another couple of decades then - even though there are no plan B's or C's. We have something unique in our waterfront which isn't just taken up by 600 yards from Mann Island to Chapel Street - let's exploit it like never before. These towers by the way, hardly towers in the global sense of the word, a few struggle to get past the height of the Liver.

    Regarding corpy built high rises from the 50s and 60s. People were put in them as their communities were broken up. It was forced upon them and most didn't want to be there. We have seen with the few blocks that are left and have been modernised how 21st century living in these is a different kettle of fish when it's volutary and you're actually forking out of your own pocket to live in them.

    It will not have escaped the attention of any developer, certainly not one so 'shrewd' as Peel (as we keep hearing they are) that this type of building must be desired or they wouldn't even entertain the idea of building them.

    A forumer elsewhere has posted up a low level travel lodge type building that is currently on our dockscape and looks totally out of place, the area being deserving of so much better. Low level buildings have their place but not on such desirable sites.

    Onward and forward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    No more towers!
    There's only about 4 for god's sake.
    No more red brick crap more like.
    4 is too many.

    I can see more than 4 on my way in.

    Red brick, bring it on. Great looking. Much better than the Glass Leggo Monsters. The city was full of wonderful buildings before they decided to build this garbage. Look at what they have knocked down. Its criminal.

    They cant even fill these towers and they want more..Its laughable. Knock em down
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    I would love to see a whole esplanade with replicas of the old customs house and a miniature version of William Brown street from Princes dock right up to Clarence dock, don't forget those splendid stone walls like what's around the Walker Art Gallery, it'd look like Greece when you're coming down the Mersey but guess what, we've no money to make it happen.

    Red brick, like the much maligned low level halifax building on the strand or the 2 storey throwaway low budget hotels on the south docks - nah, dead naff and not much thought gone into them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    4 is too many.

    I can see more than 4 on my way in.

    Red brick, bring it on. Great looking. Much better than the Glass Leggo Monsters. The city was full of wonderful buildings before they decided to build this garbage. Look at what they have knocked down. Its criminal.

    They cant even fill these towers and they want more..Its laughable. Knock em down
    I agree. Criminal. The whole idea should be examined closely. Peel Holdings are known to get what they want. CRIMINAL hardly covers it. The council are already being investigated for "corporate hospitality" costs, let's wait a little longer. PEEL and associates are no doubt covering their tracks.

    Regarding Ged's posts. #26 & 28. "Lasses", are there no Judies in Liverpool anymore?
    I've no further comments, Ged appears to shift shape too often for me.

    Best wishes Spike,
    Chas

  30. #30
    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    I love Ged though Chas. He is my buddy.

    Everyone to their own.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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