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Thread: Shanghai-style plan

  1. #31
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    I'm all for preserving heritage, but what use is too many docks and no boats/ships to use them?
    Click on my sig

    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
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    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  2. #32
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.
    I guess in an ideal world, you could do that. In the real world you have to balance posterity with 'progress'.

    There seems to be a basic contradiction in what you say. You want to preserve the remnants of the past and presumably the spirit that built them. Back in the day, that same spirit would have had no hesitation whatsoever in filling in every dock if it made more money.

    Peel may have wanted to fill the East Waterloo Dock (did they own it then???) but the fact is, it isn't filled and no docks will be filled for Liverpool Waters (or Wirral Waters) either. So something is working in your favour.

    Just reading the red text on your signature, no we wouldn't visit Venice if the canals were filled because that's all there is. Venice's canals are the lifeblood of the city. They are the only way to get around. It's different, unusual and attractive.

    What else does Venice do but be seen? Do you mean all Liverpool does or did or has to offer is derelict docks? Do people really come to see derelict docks or even working docks? I think not.

    For the greater part of Liverpool Docks' lives they've lived behind high walls cutting the city off from the river. I don't think that's what's made Liverpool unique. The comings and goings of a great working port are what has given us a unique character - not empty docks.

    Yes, water is attractive to live by and even play in or on but if you can't get life out of the docks, they may as well be filled. As it happens it seems that Peel and the city agree. Why else would Peel apply to create marinas and the like and the city support them?

    If you're not flogging a dead horse perhaps you're fighting a battle already won?

  3. #33
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grekko View Post
    Want a few docks for Havasu City?
    Nah... little boats so I think they dig their own....


    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=havasu...vasu+city&z=17

  4. #34
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    There seems to be a basic contradiction in what you say. You want to preserve the remnants of the past and presumably the spirit that built them. Back in the day, that same spirit would have had no hesitation whatsoever in filling in every dock if it made more money.
    We live here now with what they left us. We do not have to think like them. Most of the history has gone which was the buildings around the water spaces. We can make a future Amsterdam out of them. You can't do that without water.

    Peel may have wanted to fill the East Waterloo Dock (did they own it then???) but the fact is, it isn't filled and no docks will be filled for Liverpool Waters (or Wirral Waters) either. So something is working in your favour.
    I think British Waterways may own West Waterloo - not sure. The master plan is filling in West Waterloo - Peel claim to build a cruise liner terminal off the dock so it needs filling. So this is not working to "our" favour.

    Just reading the red text on your signature, no we wouldn't visit Venice if the canals were filled because that's all there is. Venice's canals are the lifeblood of the city. They are the only way to get around. It's different, unusual and attractive.
    The docks were lifeblood of Liverpool --and still are. Amsterdam and Venice were commercial cities - that is why the canal;s were built. They converted the redundant commercial canals and buildings to residential and leisure use. Which is exactly what Liverpool should be doing.

    Do people really come to see derelict docks or even working docks? I think not.
    They do now that many of them are expanding onto them and opening the river up to the city beyond.

    Click on the link in my sig and read the pages.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  5. #35
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    We live here now with what they left us. We do not have to think like them. Most of the history has gone which was the buildings around the water spaces. We can make a future Amsterdam out of them....


    I think a new cruise liner terminal (in part of the West Waterloo Dock) is a very significant step forward and very much in the city’s favour (and in favour of your position). I would thank Peel for it. I’ve no need to react to Peel’s thinking, I prefer to think for myself, thank you.

    I don’t think you can be referring to ‘Old Amsterdam’ (with the canals). Liverpool docks have neither ever had nor ever will have, that character. The canals are Lilliputian in comparison. Different entirely.

    ***

    Perhaps you mean the regeneration of the Eastern Harbour District (ie., the docks) in Amsterdam. As it happens someone gave me a large coffee table book on the ‘New Amsterdam’ a while back.

    From what I can see, very little use is made of the water. It’s a dull place indeed and may just as well have been entirely dry. It hasn’t enticed me to go there and have a look.

    ***

    'Most of the buildings have gone' but 'we can make a New Amsterdam out of them'??? You can see how this is contradictory.

    In any event, you are entirely mistaken that anything in the central and north docks other than Seaforth Docks are currently any kind of lifeblood for the city. They are a post-industrial wasteland. Liverpool is already converting what remains of the buildings into residential and leisure use.

    The rest are long gone, such as they were. And as they were (tin sheds), they would have restricted the kind of bold development that put them there in the first place. Perhaps unfortunate but true - but it is flogging a dead horse to try to bring them back.

    It seems to me that we've kept the best and most re-usable and leveled the rest to make way for new and bold development. Result.

    ***

    The Leeds and Liverpool canal (being the only canal) is a different story again. The Stanley Dock end is being ‘regenerated’ and the rest of the canal in the city has been re-opened/made safe and it is hoped to see sequential development along it as an important water-resource in the city.

    The city are also investigating the further exploitation of the waterfront to bring the city to the river. I’m sure we’d all like to see it as the longest and most successful waterfront in the UK.

    ***

    Peel have gone to great lengths to appease the Luddites at UNESCO. The proposed skyline respects both the Liver Building and Stanley Dock complexes, yet is still bold and imaginative.

    What more could you want? - if it's not a battle won, it's definitely getting there.

    .

  6. #36
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    What's with this new water treatment facility going ahead including the partial in-fill of a dock which UNESCO and EH have agreed to in the WHS buffer zone. Is that two faced or what?
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    What's with this new water treatment facility going ahead including the partial in-fill of a dock which UNESCO and EH have agreed to in the WHS buffer zone. Is that two faced or what?
    100% two-faced!!!

    If they were told they could not fill in docks to do it they would have found another location. They pleaded and whined that it was the only location (which is tripe) and got their way. If they are aware they could not do this at all they would never submit such plans. Naive councillors then say yes as it "creates jobs". It would have created jobs in another location and the Wellington dock used for more longer lasting more heritage developments that will be here in hundreds of years to come and would enhance the quality of life of the people of the city.

    Wayne Col' was right.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  8. #38
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    I think a new cruise liner terminal (in part of the West Waterloo Dock) is a very significant step forward and very much in the city’s favour (and in favour of your position). I would thank Peel for it. I’ve no need to react to Peel’s thinking, I prefer to think for myself, thank you.
    Gain some facts before thinking The amount of water spaces infilled is the equivalent to a whole port in come cities.

    I don’t think you can be referring to ‘Old Amsterdam’ (with the canals). Liverpool docks have neither ever had nor ever will have, that character. The canals are Lilliputian in comparison. Different entirely.
    Liverpool's unique interconnected docks system (largest in the world) can crate a whole waterscaped city in themselves. The waters are an ideal transport route as well. I'm sure people in Amsterdam say what you said when the commercial side subsided.

    Most of the buildings have gone but we can make a New Amsterdam out of them??? You can see how this is contradictory.
    It is not contradictory.

    The port is still; very important top the city.

    but it is flogging a dead horse to try to bring them back.
    Who want to put back old warehouses? A Liverpool Waters, but done properly with proper rapid-transit transport connections to ensure success, which has passed them by.

    Peel have gone to great lengths to appease the Luddites at UNESCO.
    If keeping our heritage is being Luddite then......

    Peel care only of Peel and the profits they make from increased land values. Even derelict it gains in value.

    What more do I want, well what we all need really, not a want, is stop the water space filling to line the pockets of rich organizations. Enough is enough. In fact much of it can be re-excavate, like Toxteth and Harrigton Docks when the industrial estate is moved to a proper location.

    The scope fro Birkenhead Dock, which run inland is phenomenal -right between two towns which can make a proper centre. Wallasey doesn't have a centre being realistically a suburb of Liverpool.

    BTW, Wallasey needs a rail tunnel connecting to Liverpool - Birkenhead has one. Best is North End Liverpool to Wallasey. Merseyrail then can serve large parts of Wallasey currently unserved, and the north end of Liverpool bringing both banks together. She should be easy to get from Anfield to Wallasey and beyond then.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  9. #39
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Gain some facts before thinking
    I've just read Kev's further instructions for this forum. I'm new here but this post doesn't strike me as particularly friendly or factual or that useful. I'm not particularly thin-skinned. What I do doesn't call for being thin-skinned.

    However I do have a lot of facts at hand as it happens, having spent a number of years studying the subject, the area and the city both professionally and privately. I'm ready to debate the issues calmly and hopefully as much for my benefit and information as yours and everyone else here.

    So what's it to be? Rational discussion or yet more internet macho and bs. Up to you (or perhaps not)

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Liverpool's unique interconnected docks system (largest in the world) can crate a whole waterscaped city in themselves.
    The amount of water infilled is pretty small considering there are seven and half miles of docks on the Liverpool side alone and a drop in a bucket compared to anything but (pick a small port).

    You’re quite right that a lot more could have been achieved with some but it wasn’t. Times change. Sometimes for the better.

    You appear to make much of the comparison with Amsterdam but the two cities are worlds apart in almost every respect

    Whilst by no means unique Liverpool or its Docks could be another Venetian or Dutch paradise but you don’t seem to say anywhere why they should be or how they could be. Like it or not, money matters.

    I’m sure you will say that profit or economics are unimportant compared with the ‘heritage’ of the place but unless you can make the economic case persuasively to those that make those decisions (or you’re ready with your own money), you really are going to have to live with it, much as the Luddites eventually had to live with the Spinning Jenny (or the like)

    And yes, if all of Peel Waters went ahead the best way to meet demand is a new rail tunnel under the Mersey. It would be a nice problem to have.

  10. #40

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    You may be new here Peter,but it's good to see you are now providing your informed opinion on here as well as a certain football forum.
    Happy posting

  11. #41

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    Why do we want an Amsterdam? Why not a Liverpool.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

  12. #42
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    Waterways, I agree that UNESCO and EH are 100% two faced but you sort of miss the point. They will allow this partial dock infill for the waste treatment plant but have tried to run Peel out of town over a 5.5b investment plan
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Why do we want an Amsterdam? Why not a Liverpool.
    Exactly! Something unique. However these money grabbing sharks keep filling in water spaces, so we will end up with an anytown full of retail sheds.

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    However I do have a lot of facts at hand as it happens, having spent a number of years studying the subject,
    Do you work for Peel? Something tells me you do. No one with any knowledge of Liverpool, its heritage, the city and dock waterways system would conclude we need to fill-in any more water spaces. The amount already filled has got beyond a joke. Many wanted the Albert Dock dynamited into the docks. Look what we have! They managed to demolish the Brindley warehouses and a whole dock district called Nova Scotia. The line has to be drawn.

    The amount of water infilled is pretty small considering there are seven and half miles of docks on the Liverpool side alone and a drop in a bucket compared to anything but (pick a small port).
    You must work for Peel or British Waterways or made/make money from them to make such an ill-informed comment.

    Belwo; the south end docks that have been infilled. Manchester Dock and Chester basin on not titled, they are at the top near the Pier Head. That OVER HALF of the south end water spaces obliterated.


    Central docks. Little of those are left and they want to fill in west waterloo as well - bottom left hand dock


    The docks are still there complete with quays under the earth. Clarence dock is still there look, the oulines is still there of the quays:


    • Sandon Dock - filled in
    • Wellington Docks - will be filled in
    • Bidston Dock - filled in. This was a part of Wallasey Pool
    • Bromborough Dock - the largest privately owned dock in the world which was Bromborough Pool; filled in
    • Princes dock - filled to canal boat depths
    • Princes Half-Tide dock - filled to canal boat depths


    Look at a map. Many branch docks north of Wellington Dock have been filled in, from Canada, Huskisson, Hornby, Alexandra, Langton, etc. Even the dock at Otterspool was filled in.

    Times change. Sometimes for the better.
    Name me something for the better in docks filling? Do not write Kings. What a disaster.

    You appear to make much of the comparison with Amsterdam but the two cities are worlds apart in almost every respect
    The point with Amsterdam is that they successfully converted commercial waterway to leisure/residential. Look at what Hamburg is doing - I did mention Hamburg and you read the web sites as well:





    Whilst by no means unique Liverpool or its Docks could be another Venetian or Dutch paradise but you don’t seem to say anywhere why they should be or how they could be. Like it or not, money matters.
    Read the web site in my sig. It says a lot. Liverpool IS unique. The largest interconnected dock system in the world. Well it was until sharks got their hands on it.

    I’m sure you will say that profit or economics are unimportant compared with the ‘heritage’ of the place but unless you can make the economic case persuasively to those that make those decisions (or you’re ready with your own money), you really are going to have to live with it, much as the Luddites eventually had to live with the Spinning Jenny (or the like)
    Read the web site on the sig. I am clearly not advocating recreating the past. A waterscaped city has to keep what it has in heritage, but the rest can be modern builds suitable for a waterscape, not anytown structures more suitable fro Surrey.

    And yes, if all of Peel Waters went ahead the best way to meet demand is a new rail tunnel under the Mersey. It would be a nice problem to have.
    Peel Waters is lackluste and unimaginative - it will be cheap and tatty like the first phase of Dockalnds in London. The first phase was the Shanghai Tower. Great a tall tower for us. But the wanted it in the middle of Princes half-tide dock. The footprint is so large it would leave a moat around the tower. Land by stealth. More water spaces filled in for Peel to make money from lucrative land. They are a land company. They are out to make money at all costs. It is up to us to make sure they do not destroy our heritage and legacy.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  14. #44
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Peel's Liverpool Waters sure is becoming lacklustre and unimaginative but that's due to concessions having to be made because of those that you agree are 100% two faced - UNESCO and EH.
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Waterways, I agree that UNESCO and EH are 100% two faced but you sort of miss the point. They will allow this partial dock infill for the waste treatment plant but have tried to run Peel out of town over a 5.5b investment plan
    Peel know the rules, but ignored them. Then claim they are being victimized.

    Two points

    1. The plans do not respect the WHS of the site
    2. The absence of any rapid-transit to the site when the city has a such a network


    The above points show they are not serious - or complete amateurs. Probably both.

    You are lionizing Peel. Peel are trying to do not much at all and make as much as possible. It is up to the city to make them do what they are supposed to do.

    Peel would concrete over the lot if they had their way. Every project has waterspace filling and obliteration. Common sense says excavate them and build around the waterspaces. They are still there complete with quays. Then the waterscape improves vastly and history is not obliterated.

    Peel create land by stealth, as they have done in Liverpool and Birkenhead. That is their mentality. They care not a jot about history or heritage. The plans for Liverpool Waters is just modern cheap tat worse than London's Docklands - in a World Heritage Site. English Heritage are locking horns with them for ignoring the history of the site. The area will flop and will not have vibrancy as seen in Continental cities. They have not even put in rapid-transit transport provision either in Wirral or Liverpool Waters. It will flop without a Merseyrail connection.

    We need modern developments to compliment the waterscape and the history. Read the link in my sig. There are pages on Hamburg and Amsterdam. Manchester is mentioned for the good work they have done in canals. Breda and Ghent are reintroducing rivers and the likes.

    The value of the land they own rises as it lays there derelict. How many years have they had to do something positive? mmm. What do we see? Nothing. What they offer is second rate tat. Nothing of any note except Shanghai Tower.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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