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Thread: Shanghai-style plan

  1. #61
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    I was reading it in the Guardian which is by no means absolute proof and the original source is something called 'GMB Experts in the World of Work'. I can't help you with any links as yet - I'm not sure when the analog meets the digital at The Guardian...

    I will admit to being surprised too but when you think how many people leave the city in the prime economically active age of 18 to 21 in one group and then 21 to 30 in another, then reckon how many old folks stay as the population of the UK get older, then add in the national average for unemployment-ness, I guess it starts to make sense.

    I wonder how many people running around the shops and bars in town are still living on borrowed time (and money).

    I had a nice big Ford in Africa - I loved that vehicle to bits. I bent a Toyota Landcruiser down at the shops in Sydney. Rubbish car. Massive engine but way too heavy. Nearly everyone there who needed one had a 2WD ute. S'not what you got, it's how you use it. Travelog over.

    ---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    NO compromises. The rule book was known from the start. They know the framework they should work in....Skyscrapers on the river wall? Yerrr
    The rule book is here http://liverpool.gov.uk/Images/SPDWorldHeritageSite.pdf

    You will notice that Peel's proposals respects them. When you're ready you can tell us where they don't.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    The rule book is here http://liverpool.gov.uk/Images/SPDWorldHeritageSite.pdf

    You will notice that Peel's proposals respects them. When you're ready you can tell us where they don't.
    There is one thing tat is not mentioned and that is the "spirit" of World Heritage. A city applies, it gets it, then it ignores it or go off in a different direction.

    For those who want to shoot liverpool in the foot, Liverpool will not reject World Heritage Status. People went for it as they thought it would stop the continual rot and prevent the modern tat that has emerged over the past 60 years.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  3. #63
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    There is one thing tat is not mentioned and that is the "spirit" of World Heritage. A city applies, it gets it, then it ignores it or go off in a different direction.

    For those who want to shoot liverpool in the foot, Liverpool will not reject World Heritage Status. People went for it as they thought it would stop the continual rot and prevent the modern tat that has emerged over the past 60 years.
    And what is that spirit? I'm all ears.

  4. #64
    Member buggedboy's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry. LCC will approve this scheme, no matter what UNESCO say. I was at a meeting with Joe Anderson last week and he said those very words. The planning committee will do what Joe wants on this or kiss goodbye to their political careers.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    And what is that spirit? I'm all ears.
    Respecting heritage - new buildings respecting the World Heritage Status.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  6. #66
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buggedboy View Post
    I wouldn't worry. LCC will approve this scheme, no matter what UNESCO say. I was at a meeting with Joe Anderson last week and he said those very words. The planning committee will do what Joe wants on this or kiss goodbye to their political careers.
    LCC passing it does not mean it will be accepted. LCC are not the end of the line.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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  7. #67
    Member buggedboy's Avatar
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    If you mean English Heritage, well they have no power other than to ask for a public inquiry. UNESCO have even less. We all know central government will support the council in this one.


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  8. #68
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    A ludicrous and backward-looking ambition.
    You must work for Peel having such contempt for the city's heritage.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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  9. #69
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    LCC passing it does not mean it will be accepted. LCC are not the end of the line.
    Would you rather the tumbleweed wasteland remain because that's what is sure to happen, another 30 years of neglect if this didn't get built. Any other notion you have of a knight in shining armour rescuing it with their own 5.5b worth of investment is beyond even pie in the sky. Ask the locals of Vauxhall what they'd rather have, at least job opportunities and vibrancy on their doorstep.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

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  10. #70
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Would you rather the tumbleweed wasteland remain because that's what is sure to happen,
    If Peel continue with their approach (increased land values on derelict land) and continue to do nothing, then moves must be made to replace them. Others would eagerly take up the baton.

    They promise all sorts, but we see nothing.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  11. #71
    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    "The footlink was or is intended to provide public access around the Mersey from New Brighton to Southport via Runcorn. The problem in this part of the world always was, how do you get past the working section of docklands at Seaforth?

    I think it was a nice idea but practically speaking you would need an Act of Parliament to create a public right of way."

    Years before any Peel involvment,(80's,I think) it was was possible to walk(or cycle,in my case)from the Pier head to the marina,in Crosby! It did involve some circuitous pathfinding,along the way,with the odd run-in with the docks police,but it does seem pretty feasible, to run an acceptable pathway along there,as there is already a riverside road(now fenced off) along the front of the container base!
    As for unesco/english heritage(who's?),we can,and have, managed quite well without them!

  12. #72
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsteve55 View Post
    As for unesco/english heritage(who's?),we can,and have, managed quite well without them!
    The simple fact is the city hasn't managed on its own. Swathes of of attractive, historic buildings have been demolished in the city - the carnage is approaching the destruction of whole districts. Historic buildings around the docks and historic docks have been obliterated - the docks can be reinstated - historic Clarence Dock is a prime example. Modern buildings over the past 60- years have generally been appalling. The city is open to short term vote chasing councils or political one-upmanship, as the Brunswick Tower debacle clearly demonstrated. No the city cannot do it by itself, it is clear it cannot. The city needs external bodies to advise, prod and pull back. I think UNESCO & EH are not strong enough at times - if they were strong the appalling Echo Arena would not have been built where it is. It looks like a carbuncle next to the Albert Dock.The city a few years back wanted to introduce Land Valuation Taxation - Whitehall stopped them. That is tax the values of land, all land, not the structures on it. That is, all land if something is on it or not. If they had the power to do so the derelict land and buildings would have been renovated or cleared a long time a go. Look at what Pittsburg and Harrisburg did in the USA. All vacant lots were cleared up very quickly. Speculators then turned to enterprise activities not parasitical activities and economic growth emerged instead of dereliction.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

  13. #73
    Member buggedboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    If Peel continue with their approach (increased land values on derelict land) and continue to do nothing, then moves must be made to replace them. Others would eagerly take up the baton.

    They promise all sorts, but we see nothing.
    In terms of Wirral Waters, we haven't seen firm commitmentrs for a range of reasons. One being that the financial incentives of Enterprise Zone status do not actually begin to kick in until April 2012. Apart from that, the financial situation we are in right now means there was always going to be a delay in securing finance. Getting planning permission meant that Peel could BEGIN the process of finding finance for their scheme. Not begin building. Anyone who has been involved in development knows that funding is usually dependant on securing planning content.

    As to Liverpool Waters, well they can have provisional meetings with potential investors, but it is unlikely they can get anywhere close to serious investment at least until they have outline consent. Nobody will go near it until it's approved.

    I'm a big supporter of this scheme but I do not think we will see any building at Liverpool Waters until at least late 2013.

    Look at LFC and their stadium. People are unreasonably thinknig that the new owners are taking too long to find funding. It takes as long as it takes.


    As to your CPO fantasy. Well, a CPO would only be possible if another viable scheme was being proposed. There is not, so that isn't going anywhere.

  14. #74
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    You must work for Peel having such contempt for the city's heritage.
    I have neither contempt for the city's heritage nor do I work for Peel. Do you really think one of their employees would want or be commissioned to come here just to argue with you? Get over yourself.

    ***

    As I said there is much of the past that we should keep. We should keep both the best of the past as a reminder, testament and encouragement of the spirit of the best of our predecessors that achieved so much and we should keep the most useful in today's context.

    Both times change and buildings become redundant and redundant buildings have had their day - by definition.

    If a building (or a dock) can no longer provide what it provided then or more importantly, what we need now, it’s continued existence is questionable. We need to make value judgements. No, I’m not talking about money - we must ask if we keep this thing, how will it help us, ‘spiritually’ and materially?

    Truthfully, an 18th century Duke’s dock or dock buildings around it (even as loft apartments for several hundred) really cannot do the job of a 21st century assembly building to the benefit of tens of thousands.

    ***

    Your allusions to Amsterdam harks back to both another time AND another place.

    The reasons-to-be that made Amsterdam what it was and is just didn’t happen here. We would need to create it. A false copy. A theme park. A Disneyland version. A sham, that would destroy what we set out to preserve.

    We can neither replicate old Amsterdam (the cute canals) without filling in docks to canal widths and depths (against a self-imposed constraint) and without reducing development to uneconomic levels nor does the very different New Amsterdam of full width and depth docks actually provide an environment that is economically deliverable or even a desirable place to live.

    Take a serious look at New Amsterdam (the big docks). It’s like a council estate on ice.

    I'm seriously concerned about the northern end of Peel's proposals. They have been compromised to such an extent, it is starting to look like New Amsterdam.

    ***

    We need both understanding and imagination. If the limit of our ambition is to stupidly ape the past or make a dull copy without question, we are in trouble. If we want to ape someone else’s past, we are in serious trouble indeed.



    ---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by buggedboy View Post

    I'm a big supporter of this scheme but I do not think we will see any building at Liverpool Waters until at least late 2013.

    .
    All too true. The earliest possible time for starting is 2014 (Lindsey Ashworth, Peel 2010) and that is entirely dependent on the economic situation.

  15. #75
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    WW - who are these fanciful 'others' who would be only too keen to step in and build on the central docks. There were no others before Peel and there have been no others since.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

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