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Thread: The Steamer Manxman

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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Default The Steamer Manxman

    SHE brought joy to millions. Now campaigners battling to save one of our best-loved ships are urging those people to buy a stake in wonderful memories of yesteryear.

    The idea is for everyone to adopt a £1 rivet in the steamer Manxman to raise £100,000 and help return her to the Mersey, in a scheme backed by the Liverpool Daily Post & Echo.

    The Earl and Countess of Derby have already bulk-ordered 1,000 rivets at £1 each to launch the campaign in style, as the Derbys were formerly Lords of Mann.


    ADVERTISING




    The money from the £1-a-rivet campaign is desperately needed to match-fund the offer of a £100,000 donation from Liverpool City Council by Cllr Mike Storey, executive member for special initiatives for 2008.

    Manxman is the last traditional steam-turbine powered, passenger-only, cross-channel ferry in Europe, and was the last classic steamer operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet.

    Two million passengers sailed on Manxman between Liverpool and Douglas, plus cruises to Llandudno, from her completion by Cammell Laird, Birkenhead, in 1955, until withdrawal in 1982.

    Presently, Manxman is derelict in Pallion Shipyard’s dry dock, Sunderland, under threat of being scrapped by her Greek owners.

    Manxman Steamship Co charitable trust propose to tow Manxman from the River Wear to the Mersey either as a hulk or aboard a pontoon barge.

    The plan is to restore Manxman as a floating static conference centre and Merseyside merchant navy museum. Ken Dodd has been also invited to put his comedy museum archive on board.

    A public meeting in Liverpool last month was attended by more than 100 people, keen to see Manxman saved.

    TO MAKE a donation, please make cheques payable to Manxman Steamship Co, and send to Bill Ogle, Chairman, Manxman Steamship Co, c/o 153 Mather Avenue, Liverpool. If you are a taxpayer, please complete a gift aid form as this will increase your donation by 28%. See website www.ssmanxman.co.uk (in Friends of Manxman section ).

    Should this bid to save Manxman be unsuccessful, residual monies will be paid to other appropriate maritime charities.

    peter.elson@icliverpool.com
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    SHE brought joy to millions. Now campaigners battling to save one of our best-loved ships are urging those people to buy a stake in wonderful memories of yesteryear.
    The problem is where to put the Maxman - a very large port like Liverpool, with miles of redundant docks, couldn't even find space for the historic warships turned away from the East Float in Birkenhead. The tall ships which visit Liverpool regularly, cannot berth at Princes and associated Docks near the centre. The river locks at Brunswick Dock in the South End have been made very small only accommodating very small, mainly leisure craft. The wide South End Coburg Dock river lock has been removed and the lock sealed up. The South End docks can only be accessed by ships via the Canning Half-Tide river locks, which are small accommodating only small ships, precluding any ocean going ships. The North End Docks running from the city centre are duck pond depths. Trafalgar Dock has been filled in.

    The Manxman Steamship Co, wanted to berth SS Manxman at Princes Dock, however the dock has been filled in to canal boat depths precluding deep water vessels from using the city centre dock. Princes Half-Tide and West Waterloo Docks are also filled in to duck pond depths. They were filled in to make money for the owners who charge for dumping building waste in the docks. The owners care little about Liverpool and its deep sea maritime heritage.

    City centre Canning Dock is also in dire need of dredging unable to accommodate even smallish ships at one end. HMS Whimbrel is earmarked for berthing at Canning.

    The whole dock in-filling and failure to maintain adequate river locks for deep water vessels in the non-commercial docks is an acute embarrassment for the city as a whole. Liverpool is one of the few cities in the world where ships could berth in the city centre. The sooner Peel and British Waterways are ordered to excavate the docks and widen the river locks the better.

    The UN noted that Liverpool has historic docks, but no historic ships - because there is nowhere to put them, unless they are berthed amongst the large commercial ships in the large far north end docks - amongst the liquid tanks and piles of scrap metal. Which happens now when visiting foreign naval vessel dock - amongst the scruffy scrap piles. Acutely embarrassing.
    Last edited by Waterways; 09-30-2007 at 12:02 PM.
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    Junior Member Diane's Avatar
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    Good post. Yeah bring her back up to Liverpool. This once fine ship is rotting away in Sunderland. I used to sail on her to the Isle of Man along with the Manx Maid, Monas Queen, they were the queens of the sea in their day. As to where to put her, surely there must be somewhere. I shall certainly be making a donation. Get her back up to where she belongs.

    Its annoying when companies plough money into building new horrid office blocks or silly apartments yet not into restoring this fine ship.

    Let's hope she makes it. Fingers crossed.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post
    Good post. Yeah bring her back up to Liverpool. This once fine ship is rotting away in Sunderland. I used to sail on her to the Isle of Man along with the Manx Maid, Monas Queen, they were the queens of the sea in their day. As to where to put her, surely there must be somewhere. I shall certainly be making a donation. Get her back up to where she belongs.

    Its annoying when companies plough money into building new horrid office blocks or silly apartments yet not into restoring this fine ship.

    Let's hope she makes it. Fingers crossed.
    Manxman needs a city centre location, but none are available because of the short-sightedness and greed of the docks owners - unless it can scrape through the Canning Half-Tide locks into the Salthouse or Canning Docks (tight squeeze). As Central Docks are being regenerated, "maybe" Manxman can be berthed there as they are still deep water. The area will be modern blocks, etc and ideal for such a ship. The regenerated area will attract people to the ship and vise versa.

    The question is wider than just the Manxman, it is the historic naval ships and subs, which are now being lost to other ports, the tall ships, visiting naval ships when festivals are one, etc.

    If the Mersey Barrage is built (I hope it is), then the Mersey will be locked in and there will be no low tide. Ships can then berth on the river walls, locks permanently opened, so no large maintenance expenses, etc.

    River islands a can then be built with buildings on them too, as there will be no affect on currents which keep channels clear and deep.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Junior Member Diane's Avatar
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    oh lets hope the Mersey barrage is built then.

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    Senior Member HollyBlack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Manxman needs a city centre location, but none are available because ....
    If the Mersey Barrage is built (I hope it is), then the Mersey will be locked in and there will be no low tide. Ships can then berth on the river walls, locks permanently opened, so no large maintenance expenses, etc.
    River islands a can then be built with buildings on them too, as there will be no affect on currents which keep channels clear and deep.
    Where would the barrage be?

    A huge barrage, built far out into Liverpool Bay will, IMO, be uneconomic, unrealistic.

    The leading proposal - Dingle to New Ferry will not affect Liverpool in the way you describe, it mostly affects the Upper Mersey and Manchester Ship Canal. This is probably the worst possible option from an ecology standpoint as the Upper Mersey would be ruined by an insufficiency of salinity and major habitats, especially for birds, would be laid waste. Personally I hope that proposal fails. Benefits are minimal.

    A third alternative - Bootle to New Brighton would calm the Mersey Narrows but they would still be tidal, just not as much as today. It would be open to the sea at high water (to let supertankers and liners through unimpeded on the tide) but would operate as a hydroelectric dam at other times. New berths would likely be built on the walls of the barrage itself rather than on new islands. Whether they would be tourism (ferry), commercial, pleasure or museum oriented is hard to say.

    My guess is that a Bootle to New Brighton proposal, though it is more expensive than the New Ferry one will enjoy public support. Someone should get a petition going before it is too late.

    It is truly a disgrace that the historic ships did not make their way into Egerton and Morpeth docks (which are so conveniently ignored in the Wirral Waters proposals).

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    Junior Member Diane's Avatar
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    I wonder if there's any more news on her to date?

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    Senior Member HollyBlack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane View Post
    I wonder if there's any more news on her to date?
    Sadly, yes, and it's not good.

    Peel is unable or unwilling to find a berth for her, and since no berth on Merseyside will be possible the ship is not expected to be saved.
    While I think there are more important and loved ships in need of saving (Royal Iris III for a start), it is an absolute disgrace that a suitable berth cannot be found !

    And no further loss of historic dock waters should be allowed while this situation persists. Perhaps there are good reasons(?), but I'm not seeing any good reason why Egerton and Morpeth docks should not be reopened as a historic vessel museum. Just because the bridge on Tower Rd. was destroyed need not mean the docks are lost forever.


    http://www.irishseashipping.com/news...008/022008.htm
    In view of recent decisions the Manxman Trust has concluded, obviously with great regret, that the envisaged project cannot be progressed.
    1. In early 2007 ... an independent report indicated the viability of the restored Manxman to become a profitable operation based at Birkenhead.

    4. However the Trust was amazed to be advised by Peel Holdings who, having taken over the Mersey Docks Company are developing plans for both Birkenhead and Liverpool dock estates, that “their project will undoubtedly involve some form of major visitor attraction…….but certainly we would have to say that the Manxman would not be appropriate”. The local authorities have made it clear that they are unable to intervene on our behalf.

    5. Clearly without any prospect of securing a Mersey- based berth as a permanent home, the project loses its raison d’etre and funding could never be secured in these circumstances.
    More details on our web site at www.ssmanxman.co.uk

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    Senior Member shoney's Avatar
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    I took it from Liverpool to Llandudno once on a school trip, done the IOM plenty of times but my only trip on TMM was to wales, what about sending it to it's namesake home and let it cruise around the island, different port everyday, say do the island in a week total, i'd be keen for that if it was a holiday option, we've all been to douglas and ramsey but who's been to port st mary or port erin

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    One of the largest ports in the world and half of it redundant and they can't find a berth for a historic ship in either Liverpool or Birkenhead. It is a clear indication that Peel had dock filling on the agenda and those left filled in to canal boat depths so they can make money charging for the in-filling.

    The authorities should get a handle on the water spaces and have a long term strategy for their use. They should not be monkeyed with and remain deep water docks. Ships should be seen in them - you know those things we were brought up with and the city is famouse for.

    An absolute disgrace. More stripping of heritage and history for short term gain for out of town organisations.
    Last edited by Waterways; 02-22-2008 at 11:19 AM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member shoney's Avatar
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    off topic but the QE2 sailed out of auckland last night on it's last journey to New Zealand, 258 times around the world apparently (or the equivalent ) maybe the age of large boats is dead unless they have a casino aboard and the location is exotic, must be honest, theres nothing worse than being stuck on a boat in lousy weather, however, this is an historic peice of equpment ( TMM) if no-one wants it or can afford it, can it be gifted to an historical society with a few bob in the bank for it's upkeep, if not it may come down to stripping the nameplate off the bow, scrapping the boat and putting the nameplate on display in Roy's Roll's or a similar cafe

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The QE2 is being sold and put in Dubai. It is to visit Liverpool later this year.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member shoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The QE2 is being sold and put in Dubai. It is to visit Liverpool later this year.
    yeah , hotel they reckon

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    Senior Member HollyBlack's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Idea (bright or dumb?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    One of the largest ports in the world and half of it redundant and they can't find a berth for a historic ship in either Liverpool or Birkenhead. It is a clear indication that Peel had dock filling on the agenda and ... .
    I wonder whether there are any maritime or mechanical engineers on the forum who could comment on whether it would be feasible, from an engineering perspective that is -
    to haul a mid-sized historic ship out of the water via rollers or similar to move it across the man-made isthmus that is Tower Rd from the Great Float and back into the water at Egerton Dock?

    One reason I ask is that since Egerton and Morpeth docks are not shown in the "Wirral Waters" plans then perhaps they are not owned by Peel? Obviously the former Morpeth Branch Dock (now the waste water plant) is not owned by Peel so who knows?

    Can anyone cast any light on this "bright" idea?

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    Senior Member HollyBlack's Avatar
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    Default Morpeth and Egerton docks

    Quote Originally Posted by HollyBlack View Post
    ... One reason I ask is that since Egerton and Morpeth docks are not shown in the "Wirral Waters" plans then perhaps they are not owned by Peel? Obviously the former Morpeth Branch Dock (now the waste water plant) is not owned by Peel so who knows? ...
    As best I can determine, Egerton and Morpeth Docks are presently owned by British Waterways.
    http://www.irishseashipping.com/arch..._07/072003.htm
    Obviously British Waterways is presently way busy with other plans and since there seem to be major problems with reopening either Tower Road or the old lairage River entrance then I guess BW would be amenable to just about any plan anyone has.

    If there were some way of getting historic vessels in there, (even if they could not come and go) the possibility of one day restoring the docks would be good. Obviously BW has no plans of putting canal boats in there and the only thing stopping them from filling the docks and selling them off (in either order) would be public outcry. Right now they are just a liability to BW lying used and needing at least some minimal form of maintenance (toxic algae, salinity etc).

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Peel have plans to keep commercial shipping in West Float, the furthest docks away from the river, and develop East Float. This means sea going vessels passing through East Float past the large blocks they intend to build. I can see most of the East Float being filled in and only certain channels left deep water. Filling in the docks to only canal boat depths is lucrative.

    Hence why Peel can't accommodate any large sea going vessels. This is a absolute scandal and should be addressed ASAP. All councils involved should stop this vandalism by Peel.

    As regards to getting a ship into Egerton Dock, it would be cheaper to get the Manxman into Canning Dock (I think it can fit through the river locks) and restore the bridges through, Kings, Queens, Wapping and Coburg docks into deep water Brunswick to allow deep draught vessels movement along the South End docks. This will enable the tall ships to berth in the south end docks.

    Morpeth Branch Dock is filled in. Below: The land behind the tunnel ventilation shaft is the branch dock. The dock sheds can still be seen. The docks was diamond shaped. The cars are parked on the infilled Wallasey Dock. The ferry is to move to the river wall at Hornby Dock on the Liverpool side. This will all be redundant and will Wallasey Dock be excavated, or partially excavated, for a nice water based development? I doubt it.


    Peel want to fill in as many docks as possible to generate lucrative land - places were land never was. British Waterways are generally just plain incompetent.

    Hopefully this Mersey Barrage get the go ahead and ships can then berth on the river walls as the river will have little tidal rise and fall meaning expensive to fit and maintain locks gates will not be required, so ships can easily move in and out of the docks. That is a hope though. Ships are better in sheltered docks surrounded by buildings. If a historic ship it has to be in a position were it adds value and is an attraction.
    Last edited by Waterways; 02-25-2008 at 10:03 AM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Newbie Steve's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any current info on the Manxman? I used to work on her when she was a nightclub/pub in Hull and would really love to hear about her again!

    Thanks
    Steve.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

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    That was quick! many thanks!

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