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Thread: Outer Loop Line

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    Default Outer Loop Line

    Item 51 question "Merseytravel":
    http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/...?ID=10728&T=11

    Question - Merseytravel

    “The city districts and city suburbs of the City of Liverpool are underprovided for by Merseyrail compared to other Merseyside areas. For example, Birkenhead is as close or closer to Liverpool city centre as/than Toxteth, Wavertree, Old Swan, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Tuebrook, Stoneycroft, Norris Green, Anfield and Everton etc.. Birkenhead has many Merseyrail stations whereas the aforementioned Liverpool city districts have none.

    Will Liverpool City Council undertake to work towards re-balancing this discrepancy by endeavouring to facilitate the following:

    1. In the short to medium term
      1. re-activation of the existing Liverpool Loop Line from Hunts Cross on the Northern Line to Rice Lane on the Kirkby Line;
      2. consideration of the opening of stations on the Liverpool Loop Line at Alder Hey Hospital, Liverpool Football Club and Everton Football Club as priorities, as economic enablers of the project; and
      3. creation of a junction on the Liverpool Loop Line at Broadgreen to allow additional access, using existing active railways, to Liverpool city centre through Wavertree Technology Park and central inner Liverpool suburbs. This would also create two city loops, increasing flexibility of services; and
    2. Production of a long term strategy to provide many more Liverpool city districts and citizens with the enormous benefits of quality commuter/Metro rail services which are part of and integrated into the existing extensive Merseyrail network.”

    Response (from Merseytravel)

    It is Merseytravel rather than the City Council who controls the provision of rail services across Merseyside. Merseytravel have provided the following response to the Question:

    Merseytravel fully supports the development of the local transport network and works, in conjunction with partners and stakeholders, to deliver the appropriate transport solution to the problems encountered. This has led to the development of a high quality transport network which includes both bus and rail transport.

    The legacy of the rail network provides many challenges and it is difficult to make changes to the network Merseytravel has inherited. However Merseytravel refutes the idea that Wirral has a better rail network and while we accept that there are parts of Liverpool without direct rail access this is also the case with large parts of the Wirral, St Helens and Knowsley.

    Merseytravel is committed to developing the public transport network across the whole of Merseyside, providing the appropriate transport intervention where required. The Local Transport Plan Bus and Rail Strategies set out Merseytravel aspirations to develop the public transport network.

    The Rail Strategy sets out a number of improvements for the Liverpool area including opening the Bootle branch for passenger rail services and a series of new railway stations. While Merseytravel would like to take forward these proposals the current funding position makes this extremely difficult. The potential to develop the outer loop line has been lost as part of the line has been built on and thus is not identified within the Rail Strategy.

    On a positive note the lines between Liverpool and Manchester and Liverpool and Wigan have been identified for electrification in the near future by the Government.

    Merseytravel were pulling the wool over the Council's eyes. They state, "The potential to develop the outer loop line has been lost as part of the line has been built on". The Outer Loop line trackbed only has the Knotty Ash Sainbury's store rear access road on a small part of the trackbed. This is no show stopper. The line or road can even be realigned at that point or the road run over the track for short length. Sainbury's would love a rapid-transit station in their car park and I am sure would fully cooperate and pay for most of it, if not all. A quick Google Earth brings up the store.

    Most of the Outer Loop Line is built - the most expensive parts. The Western and southern sections of the Outer Loop Line are built and in use called the Northern Line. The Northern section is either:
    1. The North Mersey Branch line, from Aintree to Bootle, which is used by maintenance trains.
    2. The eastern section can be branched into the Kirkby branch of the Northern Line with ease to return back to Liverpool city centre.

    The eastern disused section from Hunts Cross to Aintree is the part of the Outer Loop in question. Only a store access road hinders a small part of the trackbed.

    It appears Merseytravel are still obsessed with saving face and getting the ill-conceived trams back on-line. The city has a rapid-transit rail network other cities drool over, the most used outside London, and it can be far, far larger without too much fuss or expense. Rapid-transit rail networks create economic growth and gives kudos. All major cities in the world have them. Liverpool has one and it is largely ignored by Merseytravel.

    Here are a few web pages that will quickly fill you in: Merseyrail Extensions

    For the the Outer Loop click in the contents. In the above link look at how the Outer Loop can flow into any airport rail station.

    How Arsenal FC used rapid-transit to amazing success. The Outer Loop is ideal to get Liverpool FC and Everton FC on this line - common sense as it ensures success of the clubs and keeps nuisance to a minimum.


    ADVERTISING





    The Outer Loop is also here:
    Click on, "North Liverpool Extension Line - Eastern Section of the Outer Loop" in the Contents:
    http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Merseyrail

    The Outer Loop is safeguarded complete with long span steel bridges. At great expense the M62 under construction left an underpass for the Outer Loop Line.

    Neal Scales of Merseytravel was prepared to partially pay using a Merseyside focused budget to get the Wrexham to Bidston Line electrified and onto Merseyrail - 55% of the line is in England. Merseyrail would also provide the electric rolling stock. Wrexham is in Wales! This diesel line runs 3 car trains from Bidston to Wrexham ONCE PER HOUR. It is low usage. The line is nearly as long as the Liverpool-Manchester Line. A nice to have of course, but such great expense fro little return that befits mainly the Welsh.

    It is best money is spent on Liverpool and using what rail infrastructure we already have, tunnels and surface trackbed, to regenerate the inner-cities, rather than chasing castles in the air which will make little or no impact whatsoever. The current electrification project of the Liverpool to Manchester, Wigan, Huyton and St.Helens lines meshes very well to get the Outer Loop operational. Some major costs are eliminated with this electrification. This is being electrified right now, not "identified for electrification in the near future by the Government", as Merseytravel state. Work is under way.

    Liverpool City Council is right. Birkenhead is better served by Merseyrail. More than Liverpool when comparing the populations of both. People in Birkenhead (and Wallasey) use Merseyrail as a metro jumping from district to district and right into Liverpool city centre's main points directly. People just outside Liverpool's city centre do not have that luxury.

    Liverpool City Council were not impressed with Merseytravel's response.
    There are no significant obstructions on the Liverpool Outer Loop Line between Hunts Cross station on the Northern Line and Rice Lane station on the Kirkby Line. A look at quick Google Maps confirms this. It is possible to walk or cycle the route but beware of broken glass and fly tipping.

    Liverpool City Council has stated, in the minutes of the Regeneration and Transport Select Committee meeting of 31 March 2011, that it is willing to formally discuss re-activation of the Liverpool Outer Loop Line with interested parties. If Interested, contact Councillor Malcolm Kennedy, Cabinet Member for Regeneration and Transport.
    malcolm.kennedy@liverpool.gov.uk
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    Where have you been hiding?

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    The track by Sainsbury/Knotty Ash is not wide enough.

    At Mill Lane/West Derby there are houses backing onto it now. Again not wide enough.

    It would cost too much.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Welcome back WW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    The track by Sainsbury/Knotty Ash is not wide enough.

    At Mill Lane/West Derby there are houses backing onto it now. Again not wide enough.

    It would cost too much.
    Is it wide enough for a canal?

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    Just get a shopping trolly past Sainsbury.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Hi Waterways

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    welcome back WW
    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance,baffle them with bull

    http://www.bmycharity.com/laurenrobinson please give generously to childrens cancer charity Clic sergent

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    The track by Sainsbury/Knotty Ash is not wide enough.

    At Mill Lane/West Derby there are houses backing onto it now. Again not wide enough.

    It would cost too much.
    Hi all,

    Costs as as much as electrifying the line from Bidston to Wrexham which is about the same length as Liverpool-Manchester?
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    The council are mentioning Liverpool FC and Everton Fc as financial enablers to open up the eastern section of the Outer Loop line. There are three potential stadium.
    1. The Council mention Alder Hey hospital (in Liverpool).
    2. Long Lane near the Northern Line Kirkby branch as well - previously suggested by the Council and in Liverpool.
    3. Broad Green Hospital was once mentioned by the Council (in Liverpool)
    4. There is the site of the sewage works east of Woolton (not in Liverpool, but Knowlsley).

    Merseytravel have little idea, here is their future map of Merseyrail. Apart from the Canada Dock Branch Line all the rest is way out of Liverpool. Neal Scales of Mersytravel is wanting to make Merseyrail into a regional railway while largely ignoring Liverpool city which is full of disused rail infrastructure which is cheap to recommission. Liverpool city needs rapid-transit Merseyrail extending to make the city more attractive to outside investors. The people of Liverpool, when considering its size is poorly served by rapid-transit.



    The City Council is correct is challenging Merseytravel and getting interested parties involved in opening the Outer Loop line.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The city has to understand what were the factors that created gradual inner-city decay and eventual collapse. Commuter-rail overall created economic growth for the Merseyside region, however it was instrumental in inner-city decay in Liverpool, shifting wealth from one area to another- the outer suburbs and towns.

    American economics professor Mason Gaffney supports this by stating:

    When rail line A raises land values it accesses, some of that gain is taken from line B, it is true.
    1. The net result, however, is positive for society, because:
      1. Some of the gain is net
      2. More land is accessed overall, raising the marginal productivity of both labor and capital, and their rewards
    2. It is something like discovering a new continent

    I don't think the city realises this. The inner-cities are bottomless pits for public money to cope with the social problems created. Now what would create further economic growth and assist in regenerating the inner-cities? Well as commuter-rail doesn't help at all, expanding the commuter-rail to form a proper meshed metro would draw-in the disenfanchised inner-cities. Liverpool can do this very easily as the city has disused rail infrastructure that can extend to draw-in the inner-cities. In fact even the social aspect can be quantified to a degree - they know how much overall they are pouring into them in welfare payments, and other aspects like crime fighting, creating public funded meaningless jobs, etc.

    The city has to draw up a case and put figures down, then present them. Putting forward how much public money would be saved from being poured into the the inner-city bottomless pit. They may be surprised that when the government cuts stop they may get the morphing of Merseyrail into a metro accepted. The electrification of the Bootle Branch line and the lines to Huyton, St.Helens will assist the case.

    Metros really do create economic growth. One accessing the inner-city districts will aid in regeneration and keep the districts self supporting giving them back their dignity Money well spent.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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    But if they dont have to spend then they wont. Do they have money with the cutbacks.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    The WAG will potentially fund a large proportion of the Borderlands Electrification.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Greg View Post
    The WAG will potentially fund a large proportion of the Borderlands Electrification.
    55% is inside England. The Merseytravel money spent on this line is way off target to the benefits to Merseyside.

    Merseytravel have no idea. They choose projects which do not give economic or social benefit.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    But if they dont have to spend then they wont. Do they have money with the cutbacks.
    At 10 to 15 million pounds per mile a mile for even a 'light rail', I don't think so.

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    In principle, they should build on their current success and spread the Merseyrail love to the other suburbs.

    The reason why the old loop line closed in the first place was because the steam trains couldn't compete with the more direct and quicker route to the city centre provided by trams a buses, however, electric trains would be much quicker and a hell of a lot more comfortable.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GNASHER View Post
    At 10 to 15 million pounds per mile a mile for even a 'light rail', I don't think so.
    Liverpool is owed investment as the city has money allocated but got none because of the ill-conceived tram project. While others cities got complete tram schemes. How long is the eastern section of the Outer Loop from Hunts Cross to Rice Lane? 4 miles? say 5 miles. So at £15 million per mile it is £75, which is buttons. Crossrail in London costed £18 BILLION. When the CC recedes Liverpool is top of the list. The point is that since the Merseytram collapse, Merseytravel does not even present schemes to be even rejected by the Transport Department in London. Merseytravel have wasted at least 10 years in running for this inappropriate tram scheme. Even after it was cancelled they were still spending millions on CPOs and acquiring land for it. Madness. If Merseytravel had put forward decent schemes, to say reactivate the link from the underground city centre to Edge Hill, serving the east of the city it may have received funding before the CC hit home.

    The city needs an inter-district metro, that will pull up the inner-cities, not glorified extensions to the existing commuter-rail network serving mainly those outside the city, giving Neal Scales a regional railway.

    In the 1970s when Merseyrail was being planned, the Welsh wanted Merseyrail electric trains quickly hitched to a diesel locomotive (takes a minute) at Birkenhead Park to haul the train to Wrexham - now it would be Bidston. Then the passengers stay in the same cars and have direct access to Liverpool's centre. This was dropped. It is still the cheapest option for the Welsh and gives the same service as full electrification. They will not allow diesel trains in the tunnels for safety reasons. Merseytravel's budget needs to be spent on Liverpool where the economic and social need is, not on electrifying 27 miles of track for one train per hour.

    The Welsh want direct access to John Lennon airport. Reactivating the Halton Curve will give them that via Runcorn and Chester, which is not a part of Merseyrail. The Borderland line will give the access the long way around, via Liverpool city centre. It is madness to electrify the low usage Borderlands line when a diesel loco will give all they want to access Liverpool's centre directly.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenface View Post
    In principle, they should build on their current success and spread the Merseyrail love to the other suburbs.

    The reason why the old loop line closed in the first place was because the steam trains couldn't compete with the more direct and quicker route to the city centre provided by trams a buses, however, electric trains would be much quicker and a hell of a lot more comfortable.
    The eastern section of the Outer Loop took passenger trains from Gateacre to Southport, via Aintree. I think passenger trains stopped in 1960. The line was designed to take freight to the north end docks.

    Below: the full loop. The disused eastern section is in red. The light blue line is the line from St.Helens, Manchester, Huyton, which is being electrified right now, would split the loop into two smaller loops giving direct access to the centre.
    [img]http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/FullOuterLoopLine.jpg[img]

    The Outer Loop was to form a complete loop of the city using the existing Northern Line as the western section and the North Liverpool Extension Line as the eastern section. The loop was to have mainline interchange stations at Broad Green (named Rocket) and Liverpool South Parkway, to prevent those on the outer part of the city entering the city centre for mainline connections. Only South Parkway station was built decades later in 2006. The interchange station at Broad Green cut the loop into two giving easy access to the city cente from the eastern section of the Loop The western section runs through the city centre and is called the Northern Line. This continuous rapid-transit rail loop is ideal for moving large volumes of people as trains continuously run around the loop, or two sub-loops. An operational advantage of the loop is that if there is an interruption at any point in the loop trains can still operate. Ideal for shift large volumes of people to and from a stadium.

    The original 1975 plan for Merseyrail had a junction at Broad Green to take the eastern section of the Outer Loop into the Edge Hill Junction. However the plan was abandoned. The trackbed of the eastern section of the loop is now the Liverpool Loop Country Park, a route for walkers and cyclists, however it is prone to fly tipping. Liverpool City Council suggested to Liverpool FC and Everton FC a stadium site at Long Lane on the northern part of the line. Everton FC have no firm site for a new stadium. Merseytravel have protected the route against obstructive development. However Sainbury's at Knotty Ash built a small service road on a part of the track.

    If the branch into the Wapping Tunnel from the Northern Line at Liverpool Central Station goes ahead, linking the underground city centre with the east of the city, further justification to given to construct the junction at Broad Green. If recommissioned, many districts would be connected creating economic growth along the line. If a large stadium, or two stadia, is located along the line this would give further justification for reopening. Park & ride points could be located at many points on the line to ensure success reducing nuisance to residents.

    In the 1970s , cost overruns on the Loop and Link tunnel projects, the financial stringency of the late 1970s, the delays to the parliamentary bill required to authorise the works caused by the objection of Anthony Steen, the Conservative MP for Broad Green on the grounds of the disruption to local residents, compounded to the postponement of the Outer Loop project.

    A number of Route Utilisation Strategy documents have mentioned opening the North Mersey Branch line from Aintree to Bootle and full Outer Loop for incorporation into the Merseyrail network. The eastern section of the Outer Loop, the North Liverpool Extension Line, is the only section not to be completed to form the outer city rail loop. The most expensive aspects of the Outer Loop were completed, leaving the relatively cheap to implement eastern section safeguarded. The trackbed is safeguarded from development from Hunts Cross to Aintree. The Liverpool Loop Country Park was created, a walking and cycling route, until the line is reused. The long span steel bridges and tunnels were left in place. When the M62 motorway was constructed in the mid-seventies, an expensive underpass was built under the motorway to accommodate the Eastern section of the Outer Loop.

    An initial 1970s proposed route for the northern section of the Outer Loop was via the southern side of the Walton Rail Triangle, skirting Walton Hall Park. From the park the line would enter the Rice Lane and Breeze Hill tunnels to Kirkdale station. The tunnels are now disused. This section was not safeguarded resulting in residential houses being built on a part of the southern section of the Walton Rail Triangle curve. It is possible to reinstate the curve on a new alignment over parkland. The later more northern alignment using the North Mersey Branch via Aintree and Bootle is safeguarded. The North Mersey Branch Line which would form the northern section of the Outer Loop is still used, however only by maintenance trains. The Eastern section of the Loop can easily be branched into the Kirkby Line at Rice lane station.

    Attempts were made to revive the project in 1985 and 2006 following the cancellation of the Merseytram scheme. However, the current electrification of the City Line would entail a cheaper project with one of the Outer Loops proposed interchange stations built, Liverpool South Parkway, the scheme becomes more attractive.

    Liverpool City Council are attempting to revive the project and in a 10 February 2011 Transport Select Committee meeting stated they desire the eastern section of the Outer Loop operative using Liverpool FC and Everton FC as financial enablers
    http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/...?ID=10728&T=11
    Liverpool City Council has stated, in the minutes of the Regeneration and Transport Select Committee meeting of 31 March 2011, that it is willing to formally discuss re-activation of the Liverpool Outer Loop Line with interested parties. They also state, "Liverpool Football Club and Everton Football Club as priorities".
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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