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    Default Lusitania

    ITíS the heartbreaking story of a Liverpool- based liner which has been told many times before.

    Yet the true scale of the terrible tragedy which befell the Lusitania still doesnít seem to have been fully appreciated.

    This might all change tomorrow night.

    For millions of viewers are expected to watch BBC1ís 90-minute drama Lusitania: Murder On The Atlantic, narrated by and starring John Hannah, who plays a survivor, Professor Holborn, and also featuring Kenneth Cranham, who takes the role of the shipís Liverpool-born captain, William Turner.

    The passenger ship was crossing the Atlantic on May 7, 1915, with 1,959 people on baord.

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    Senior Member Paul D's Avatar
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    Thanks for that I'll watch that.

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    chippie
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    I,ll just get myself a cuppa and settle myself down to watch that too. Sounds a good drama

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    It was on over here last week, excellent.
    You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
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    chippie
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    enjoyed most of it but the people stuck in the lift with not an ounce of anguish on their faces took away the moment for me.

    Bloody governments again sacrificing people for politics, it really has been war games throughout history. One of these days the people will twig on to governments.

    Good acting from the mainstream cast.

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    I didn't know this until recently, but the very little used St James' Church in West Derby has a unique war memorial depicting the doomed Cunard liner Lusitania.

    When I am next there, I'll get a picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    I didn't know this until recently, but the very little used St James' Church in West Derby has a unique war memorial depicting the doomed Cunard liner Lusitania.

    When I am next there, I'll get a picture.
    Interesting Cadfael..

    Here in Hawaii, we honor that Cunard Liner and a memorial with a street named .. Lusitania Street, here in Honolulu... aloha..

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    Politics claimed the lives of the everyday person. It happened here, it's happened since, and it WILL happen again...
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    The wreck of the Lusitania is now owned by a rich American who is constantly battling with the authorities or the courts for diving/reclaim rights. Some artefacts have been brought up over the years rightly or wrongly including one of the ships propellers that is sited near to the Liverpool maritime museum .

    But its interesting to note that after the sinking, Royal Navy divers spent the best part of one month working at the wreck site but who knows why? There has always been a dispute over the cargo that the Lusitania was carrying and although we know for certain it was carrying ammunition, the suspicion is that it was carring weapons for the war.

    Then there has been further reports that the wreck site is mined. Sounds a bit drastic but intriguing none the less.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by underworld View Post
    The wreck of the Lusitania is now owned by a rich American who is constantly battling with the authorities or the courts for diving/reclaim rights. Some artefacts have been brought up over the years rightly or wrongly including one of the ships propellers that is sited near to the Liverpool maritime museum .
    Rubens, Rembrandt and Monet paintings were aboard the vessel at the time of her sinking,these were housed in lead tubes but if he recovers these? he's gonna have another court battle on his hands as the Irish Gov are claiming rights to them.

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    Here is a very old post card of the Lusitania. She was just one of the 2479 British ships lost to enemy action in WW1. 14,287 lives were lost in that war and the total tonnage of shipping sunk amounted to 7,759,090 tons. The U.boats sank 2099 of those vessels grossing 6,635,059 tons,with the number who perished amounting to 12,723 souls. The U.boat was massively succesful for the Germans as a weapon of war.
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    Hi Brian , shiould nt it be in the Liverpool Sailors thread.
    Cheers, Off to sunny Fleetwood for a few dfays.
    Cheers
    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by captain kong View Post
    Hi Brian , shiould nt it be in the Liverpool Sailors thread.
    Cheers, Off to sunny Fleetwood for a few dfays.
    Cheers
    Brian
    Hi Brian,
    Can you still get dfays in Fleetwood?
    Haven't seen 'em for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Here is a very old post card of the Lusitania. She was just one of the 2479 British ships lost to enemy action in WW1. 14,287 lives were lost in that war and the total tonnage of shipping sunk amounted to 7,759,090 tons. The U.boats sank 2099 of those vessels grossing 6,635,059 tons,with the number who perished amounting to 12,723 souls. The U.boat was massively succesful for the Germans as a weapon of war.
    Not as a winning method of war. The U-Boats failed in two world wars. They never stopped the UK merchant fleet operating and supplying the country. From 1943 onwards they were a waste of time for the Germans as it was clear they were not stopping supplies and men to the UK, and more a morale booster than anything else. They would have been better using the steel, manufacturing capability and men in the army and air force. A hell of a lot of effort went into the failed U-Boat campaign.
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    A lot of the men listed on the WW1 Memorial at Our Lady's church Eldon Street died when Lusitania sank.

    A few newspaper cuttings here http://www.freewebs.com/eldonmemww1/rmslusitania.htm


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    Hi Waterways, have you been watching the Battle of the Atlantic on t.v.? It was a very close run thing during WW11 .According to historians it was only the entry of the U.S.A. that prevented Britain being subsumed. The Enigma machine on its own would not have been sufficient to beat the wolf packs that Doenitz was putting into battle. We did a marvellous job until 1942,but without America we would all be speaking German now.We never had the tools or the manpower to face the Axis alone.When I say we ,I include all the wonderful combatants from the Dominions and our colonies. Russia would have had a job on too if we had fallen and only God knows how things would have panned out then. Web were a fortunate country ,but we paid for that good fortune by giving up our empire..But that is a whole new thread.
    BrianD

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Hi Waterways, have you been watching the Battle of the Atlantic on t.v.? It was a very close run thing during WW11 .According to historians it was only the entry of the U.S.A. that prevented Britain being subsumed. The Enigma machine on its own would not have been sufficient to beat the wolf packs that Doenitz was putting into battle. We did a marvellous job until 1942,but without America we would all be speaking German now.We never had the tools or the manpower to face the Axis alone.When I say we ,I include all the wonderful combatants from the Dominions and our colonies. Russia would have had a job on too if we had fallen and only God knows how things would have panned out then. Web were a fortunate country ,but we paid for that good fortune by giving up our empire..But that is a whole new thread.
    BrianD
    I haven't been watching. TV programes go on shock-horror to get viewers so take with a pinch of salt. Before the US entered the war the UK was overcoming the U-boats with advanced sonar, the Leigh Light, corvettes, Hedgehogs, long range aircraft, makeshift escort carriers out of merchant hulls, convoy methods, etc.

    When the the Leigh Light was introduced in 1942, Allied shipping losses from U boats dropped from 600,000 to 200,000 tons per month. It was successfully used to attack U-boats recharging their batteries on the surface at night, especially in the Bay of Biscay. Up to then they had been safe from attack at night. The aircraft would approach the submarine downwind to avoid noise using its ASV radar, and switch on the radar controlled searchlight beam during the final approach. The U-boat would not have sufficient time to dive and the gunners would have a clear view of the target down the locked on beam. The first the U-Boat crew knew of the attack was when they were lit up and being peppers with cannon fire

    The Germans had early successes with U-Boats, but which was eventually countered

    The Germans at no time had any chance of winning WW2.

    • The massive RN was successfully starving Germany of food and essential raw materials.
    • Directly after Poland, General Halder carried a pistol to shoot Hitler when in meetings. The generals thought it foolish to attack the UK and France which had combined economies 60% larger than Germany and collectively larger forces and better tanks and more of them.
    • The Germans took a wild gamble in attacking France and the UK. It paid off beyond their widest dreams.
    • The Germans could not invade Britain, as they had a small navy and limited resources to carry out such a task.
    • The Germans faced the UK & France and failed to beat them, only taking one part of the alliance - French territory.
    • The Germans attacked the USSR with no reserves, short of oil, rubber, equipment, rail transport and marching in on foot using nearly a million horses. They totally underestimated the Soviets. Hitler said to Guderian, re: USSR, "had I known they had so many tanks as that, I would have thought twice before invading"
    • The combined UK & Soviet economies were larger than Germany's.
    • Soviet industrial output alone was larger than Germany's.


    The Germans were fools to even consider war with any of the large powers at the time.
    Last edited by Waterways; 09-07-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I haven't been watching. TV programes go on shock-horror to get viewers so take with a pinch of salt. Before the US entered the war the UK was overcoming the U-boats with advanced sonar, the Leigh Light, corvettes, Hedgehogs, long range aircraft, makeshift escort carriers out of merchant hulls, convoy methods, etc.

    When the the Leigh Light was introduced in 1942, Allied shipping losses from U boats dropped from 600,000 to 200,000 tons per month. It was successfully used to attack U-boats recharging their batteries on the surface at night, especially in the Bay of Biscay. Up to then they had been safe from attack at night. The aircraft would approach the submarine downwind to avoid noise using its ASV radar, and switch on the radar controlled searchlight beam during the final approach. The U-boat would not have sufficient time to dive and the gunners would have a clear view of the target down the locked on beam. The first the U-Boat crew knew of the attack was when they were lit up and being peppers with cannon fire

    The Germans had early successes with U-Boats, but which was eventually countered

    The Germans at no time had any chance of winning WW2.

    • The massive RN was successfully starving Germany of food and essential raw materials.
    • Directly after Poland, General Halder carried a pistol to shoot Hitler when in meetings. The generals thought it foolish to attack the UK and France which had combined economies 60% larger than Germany and collectively larger forces and better tanks and more of them.
    • The Germans took a wild gamble in attacking France and the UK. It paid off beyond their widest dreams.
    • The Germans could not invade Britain, as they had a small navy and limited resources to carry out such a task.
    • The Germans faced the UK & France and failed to beat them, only taking one part of the alliance - French territory.
    • The Germans attacked the USSR with no reserves, short of oil, rubber, equipment, rail transport and marching in on foot using nearly a million horses. They totally underestimated the Soviets. Hitler said to Guderian, re: USSR, "had I known they had so many tanks as that, I would have thought twice before invading"
    • The combined UK & Soviet economies were larger than Germany's.
    • Soviet industrial output alone was larger than Germany's.


    The Germans were fools to even consider war with any of the large powers at the time.
    We had better tanks? certainly not! During the D-day invasion,a German "King Tiger" destroyed a whole column (37) of pathetic Churchill, and Sherman tanks,and would have continued, butl he ran out of ammunition!German tanks were generally invincible,but Russian t54's were easy to make,mantain,and use, and in the end ,just like the sub's,they just couldn't keep up production,and lost in a war of attrition! As for Russia itself, no-one was ever going to win there!

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    Default my Grandad was on the Lucy

    Hi All, here is a link to a page about Grandad he was a stoker on the Lusitania.
    http://rmslusitania.info/pages/engin...nell_john.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsteve55 View Post
    We had better tanks? certainly not! During the D-day invasion,a German "King Tiger" destroyed a whole column (37) of pathetic Churchill, and Sherman tanks,and would have continued, butl he ran out of ammunition!German tanks were generally invincible, but Russian t54's were easy to make, maintain,and use, and in the end, just like the sub's, they just couldn't keep up production,and lost in a war of attrition! As for Russia itself, no-one was ever going to win there!
    In 1940 the French had better tanks than anyone. The British introduced the Matilda 2 which the Germans could not knock out, but too late. The Germans were more effective because they controlled their tanks by radio having better control on the battlefield.

    In 1940....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hannut

    "The German PzKpfw III and IV were the only German tanks capable of matching the SOMUA S35 in battle. The SOMUA S35 is generally considered to by the most formidable tank during the campaign in the west. Despite being outnumbered by odds of two to one, the German forces still managed to defeat the qualitative and numerical superiority of the French. The Germans saving grace was their superior tactical deployment. Using radio and mobility they constantly outmanoeuvred the French, who used rigid, static positioning as in the First World War."


    In 1944 (different time period in WW2 to 1940) The Wittman Tigers on D-Day, well many days after, destroyed mainly light skinned vehicles and he was killed by a Firefly tank if I recall correctly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I It was Wittman's platoon that destroyed the vehicles.

    Interesting.....from Wiki. British Firefly...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly

    "While the number of Panthers and Tigers only accounted for some 30% of the nearly 2,500 German tanks deployed in Normandy (the rest being composed of Panzer IVs, Sturmgesch?tz IIIs and other tanks the standard Shermans were able to effectively handle), Montgomery's strategy of drawing the bulk of the German armour units around the vital town of Caen so the American units could break out to the west meant that British and Commonwealth units had to face over 70% of all German armour deployed during the Battle of Normandy, as well as almost all the elite, well-equipped SS units which contained the fearsome Tigers and Panthers. Thus, despite the relatively low number of Panthers and Tigers deployed, they would almost all be facing British and Commonwealth troops. As a result, the Sherman Firefly was perhaps the most valued tank by British and Commonwealth commanders, as it was the only tank in the British Army able to effectively defeat the Panthers and Tigers at the standard combat ranges in Normandy."

    "Within 1,000 m of the town, 9 Shermans of the 1st Hussars opened fire into the advancing Panthers flanks. Lt. Henry's gunner, Trooper A. Chapman, waited until the Panthers "lined up like ducks in a row" and quickly knocked out five German Panthers with just 6 rounds. The attack was repulsed with the loss of 7 of the 12 attacking Panthers, the majority credited to Lt. Henry's single Firefly."


    Fireflys against Tigers:

    "Under strict orders from the troop commander, they held their fire until the German tanks were well within range before opening fire. Ekins, the gunner of Sergeant Gordon's Sherman Firefly (called Velikye Luki - A Squadrons tanks were named after towns in the Soviet Union) had yet to fire his gun in action. With the Tiger tanks in range, the order was given to fire, what followed was an almost twelve minute battle that saw Ekins destroying all three Tigers that No. 3 Troop could see (there were actually 7 Tiger tanks in the area heading north along with some other tanks and self propelled guns). A short time later, the main German counterattack was made in the direction of C Squadron. A Squadron (less Sgt Gordon who had been wounded and had already bailed out of the Firefly) moved over to support them and in the resulting combat, Ekins destroyed a Panzer IV before his tank was hit and the crew were forced to bail out. One of the Tigers Ekins is credited with knocking out was that of Michael Wittmann, though there is still some controversy over whether Ekins really killed Wittman as Fireflies of the Sherbrooke Fuisilier Regiment were also firing at the Tigers from a closer range of 500m."

    Only 1,400 Tigers were ever made, compared to 50,000 Shermans. It took 5 Shermans to knock out a Tiger, but they had the numbers. The British Sherman Firefly (the British put a 17 pdr gun on a Sherman) could knock out a a Tiger and did. The British Comet introduced in 1944 could and did. The rocket firing Typhoon planes knocked out Tigers. Tigers and Panthers were too few to worry about. The Allies had so many tanks and plane to knock out Tigers et al.


    From wiki:
    During August 1944, a number of Tiger II tanks were captured by the Soviets near Sandomierz and were soon moved to their testing grounds at Kubinka. The Soviet team gave the opinion that the tests revealed the tanks to be severely defective ? the transmission and suspension broke down very frequently and the engine was prone to overheating and consequential failure. Additionally, the Soviets opinion was of deficiencies in the armor after firing many anti-tank rounds at the same target. Not only did they report that the metal of shoddy quality

    The Soviet T34 not T54. This was a well designed and effective tank which the Germans could not match. About the T-34: "We had nothing comparable" - Friedrich von Mellenthin (1956). Guderian sent a team to Russia to assess the T-34 in Nov 1941, as it was murdering them. The Germans were ordered to copy it. In March of 1942, Daimler-Benz was the first to produce their version of VK3002's design based on previously rejected VK3001 (direct copy of T-34/76) design from January of 1942. Two versions of VK 3001 with different suspensions were designed by Daimler-Benz - one with spring suspension and other with torsion bar suspension. Daimler-Benz VK3002 design was largely based on T-34/76 and was more like a modified German version of it. MAN finished their design of VK3002 in early Spring of 1942.

    http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerk...71.htm#panther

    The Germans made the unreliable heavy Panther which was based on the T-34's attributes.

    The Churchill was slow but difficult to knock out. The Sherman was a medium infantry support tank. The US never made a heavy tank as their doctrine was to take out tanks with self propelled anti-tank guns. The British has a similar doctrine in the early war but charged to full tank on tank engagements. The best tank of WW2 was the British Centurion, which was deployed but never saw action.
    Last edited by Waterways; 09-07-2009 at 11:26 PM.
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    Well,you've basically confirmed my post,re' weapons attrition! The main advantage of a T34 design,was the round gun cupola,which caused a deflection of incoming shells, which the Germans certainly took on board,for future designs of thier own! Wiki quotes that the Shermans were able to "cope", only with the less powerful german tanks,hence the halt,and decimation of allied tank forces at Caen!As for the British "Comet",they were too few,and too late,to have any impact,and if you've ever seen any film of the allied march past,in Berlin,when the war ended,were absolutely dwarfed by the new Russian "Stalin" tanks,which is why no-one remembers them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsteve55 View Post
    Well,you've basically confirmed my post,re' weapons attrition! The main advantage of a T34 design,was the round gun cupola,which caused a deflection of incoming shells, which the Germans certainly took on board,for future designs of thier own! Wiki quotes that the Shermans were able to "cope", only with the less powerful german tanks,hence the halt,and decimation of allied tank forces at Caen!As for the British "Comet",they were too few,and too late,to have any impact,and if you've ever seen any film of the allied march past,in Berlin,when the war ended,were absolutely dwarfed by the new Russian "Stalin" tanks,which is why no-one remembers them!
    The T-34 had wide tracks, low profile, slanting armour, fast engine and powerful gun.

    In Normandy the Allies underestimated how much heavy tanks the Germans had. The German put nearly all against the British forces, who intelligently had the Sherman Firefly which could knock out Tigers. Only 30% of German tanks were Tigers and Panthers. Allied tank forces were not decimated at Caen. The Comet came before the full invasion of Germany.

    The Sherman was a medium infantry tank, except the Firefly version which was only available to British forces.

    The JS2 Soviet tank was just, well...big. It could easily be bogged down because of its weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmytx3 View Post
    Hi All, here is a link to a page about Grandad he was a stoker on the Lusitania.
    http://rmslusitania.info/pages/engin...nell_john.html
    Thanks Jimmy, a very interesting read and i bet your grandfather was a very interesting man too. Clearly he had a very hard life early on and hopefully his married years made up for it It brings some realism to the affair when you read a first hand account like that.

    I would have loved to have heard the interview that he did and I wonder what he thought caused the second explosion that has mystified people for many years.
    Last edited by underworld; 09-08-2009 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by underworld View Post
    Thanks Jimmy, a very interesting read and i bet your grandfather was a very interesting man too. Clearly he had a very hard life early on and hopefully his married years made up for it It brings some realism to the affair when you read a first hand account like that.

    I would have loved to have heard the interview that he did and I wonder what he thought caused the second explosion that has mystified people for many years.
    hi I wish i could turn back time, we never spoke about the Lucy when he was alive, its only as read more about it and when i read the book seven days to disaster bye Gus Hickey and Des Hickey, a cracking book, i couldn't put it down, plus my Grandad is in it, if you get the chance have a look in the library.
    a good read.
    bye for now jimmy
    Last edited by jimmytx3; 09-09-2009 at 07:14 PM.

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    What a great read that was JimmyTx..(as all your fine contributions) on ships and war are.. Thank you ...

    Your Grandfather and Mother looked very happy..To live to 92 and survive all that in his youth..is an amazing life to write about..
    Keep up your memories and writing JimmyTx3.. Excellant..

    On my island, Oahu, Hawaii.. we have a Lusitania Street in honor of that ship..

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    Quote Originally Posted by naked lilac View Post
    What a great read that was JimmyTx..(as all your fine contributions) on ships and war are.. Thank you ...
    Your Grandfather and Mother looked very happy..To live to 92 and survive all that in his youth..is an amazing life to write about..
    Keep up your memories and writing JimmyTx3.. Excellant..
    On my island, Oahu, Hawaii.. we have a Lusitania Street in honor of that ship..
    Hi Lilac, i just google eathed it, you do live farrrrr away amazing this internet,
    bye for now muchas gracias jimmy

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    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    I never knew about this memorial. Good news, I must go and have a look.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/8334571.stm

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    HE DEATH OF THE LUSITANIA

    O LUSITANIA, Empress of the Sea
    Art thou dead and buried in the deep.
    With all thy freight of human souls,
    Victim of the Huns ?most Hellish darts.

    Come nations! Rise, avenge this hideous crime.
    Avenge the cries of English hope,
    now lying cold and dead in ocean deep.
    Come nations! Rise and crush

    This hideous foe: this vampire of the world, who
    is no man
    but just a beast of prey respecting nothing.
    Laying waste to works of centuries.
    Breaking hearts and homes on every side.

    Come quickly, come, o?er England?s blood
    Be shed in vain, her noble sons all dead
    And lying on the plains. Come, nations,
    Crush this vampire into dust; come quickly, come.

    O Lusitania, my tears are falling for thee
    Fair village of palaces, gone for evermore
    Beneath the cold blue waters.

    This poem was written by Mrs. Phoebe Amory of Toronto who was a Lusitania surviour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmytx3 View Post
    hi I wish i could turn back time, we never spoke about the Lucy when he was alive, its only as read more about it and when i read the book seven days to disaster bye Gus Hickey and Des Hickey, a cracking book, i couldn't put it down, plus my Grandad is in it, if you get the chance have a look in the library.
    a good read.
    bye for now jimmy
    I'm reading this book now Jimmy and your grandad is mentioned in it along with Ben Holton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmytx3 View Post
    Hi All, here is a link to a page about Grandad he was a stoker on the Lusitania.
    http://rmslusitania.info/pages/engin...nell_john.html

    Wonderful, Jimmy!

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
    Chris on Flickr and on MySpace

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