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Thread: River Jordan Culvert - Liverpool - Dec 2010 -

  1. #1
    georgie t
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    Arrow River Jordan Culvert - Liverpool - Dec 2010 -

    ‘Otterspool’ is derived from the Old English name Otirpul or Oterpol. Otir was the Old English for otter and the location was so named because of the otters which inhabited the tidal creek and freshwater pools formed where a stream joined the River Mersey. The stream feeding Otterspool was known as Osklesbrok but was later renamed the River Jordan by a community of puritans who leased smallholdings around the stream. In 1743, 44 varieties of fish were noted in the river, including sturgeon, and it was reputed to have been the best salmon fishery in the area.

    The stream and pool were fed by two brooks known as the Upper Brook and the Lower Brook. The Lower Brook rose near Edge Lane and flowed through Toxteth Park Cemetery before meeting the Upper Brook in Sefton Park. The Upper Brook rose near Sandown in Wavertree and flowed into Greenbank Park and then into Sefton Park where it was channelled into the boating lake to meet the Lower Brook. From Sefton Park the stream was culverted until it re-emerged in Otterspool Park . Before modifications were made to the flow of the stream, ‘Osklesbrok’ was a vigorous watercourse with good quality fishing and contained a number of cascades along its course as it flowed through woodland before joining the Mersey.


    these are just a handfull of pics taken underground in this vast culvert,after a day of some serious draining this was the last port of call and to be honest by the time we had found this the last thing i wanted to do was walk well over a mile in the crouched position after doing it for most of the day.

    there is a collapse in the middle of this meaning its now split into 2 halfs with major flooding at the end of the first half.the first half we left it was the second half we done and by the time we came out and was going to do the first section we was just too ****ed to even bother with it so a re-visit is deffo in order to complete the full tunnel when we are fresh faced.


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    im no expert on these kind of things but this is vast with mainly walking crouched over and very little room to even attempt to stand up but it is fun just to stop for a minute and see fish trying to swim back upstream after getting swept away from sefton park lake.


    visited with kevsy21 and tcci (although he didnt venture in thanks for lending me your spot beam)















  2. #2
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Thank you very much, Georgie. Great to see these photographs!

    Chris

    ---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------

    Hi again Georgie

    In the matter of whether Otterspool ever had otters, or sturgeons or salmon in it... I am a bit doubtful. Okay I know that is the story. However, if say the name "Otterspool" actually derives from the name "Osklesbrock" and not from "Otter" that might argue that the idea that the stream was filled with otters is an old myth and the name originated in another way. It would appear to me that much of the old writing about name derivations is full of hypothesis.

    We had a similar situation recently when we were talking about the possible derivation of the name "Penny Lane" which many people have claimed comes from slave captain and merchant James Penny. But near the corner of Greenbank Road and Smithdown Road there was a mansion called "Penketh Hall" which might have some relationship to nearby "Penny Lane." One scholar around 1900 claimed that "Penketh" was a name associated with "battle" but there is no proof that any battle took place in the area.

    Here in the United States there is a stream in Baltimore County called "Bread and Cheese Creek." Local tradition maintains that the creek got its name from soldiers in the War of 1812 eating their rations of bread and cheese on the banks of the creek at the time of the Battle of North Point in 1814. The creek runs through the battlefield and both the American and British troops camped by the waterway. The truth though is that the name of the creek is older. My research shows that the name dates back to colonial times, at least as far back as 1737 when the name is mentioned in a land patent, so obviously it has
    nothing to do with soldiers eating their sarnies on the riverbank in 1814!

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Hi Georgie, these pics are excellent, where is its location? Have you got a map?

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    Senior Member GeorgePorgie's Avatar
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    Georgie's been up one of Sh$t sluices on the Mersey wall.

    What ae you wading through in the second pic,Georgie?

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Hopeyou disinfected yourself after that scramble.

  5. #5
    georgie t
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Thank you very much, Georgie. Great to see these photographs!

    Chris

    ---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------

    Hi again Georgie

    In the matter of whether Otterspool ever had otters, or sturgeons or salmon in it... I am a bit doubtful. Okay I know that is the story. However, if say the name "Otterspool" actually derives from the name "Osklesbrock" and not from "Otter" that might argue that the idea that the stream was filled with otters is an old myth and the name originated in another way. It would appear to me that much of the old writing about name derivations is full of hypothesis.

    We had a similar situation recently when we were talking about the possible derivation of the name "Penny Lane" which many people have claimed comes from slave captain and merchant James Penny. But near the corner of Greenbank Road and Smithdown Road there was a mansion called "Penketh Hall" which might have some relationship to nearby "Penny Lane." One scholar around 1900 claimed that "Penketh" was a name associated with "battle" but there is no proof that any battle took place in the area.

    Here in the United States there is a stream in Baltimore County called "Bread and Cheese Creek." Local tradition maintains that the creek got its name from soldiers in the War of 1812 eating their rations of bread and cheese on the banks of the creek at the time of the Battle of North Point in 1814. The creek runs through the battlefield and both the American and British troops camped by the waterway. The truth though is that the name of the creek is older. My research shows that the name dates back to colonial times, at least as far back as 1737 when the name is mentioned in a land patent, so obviously it has
    nothing to do with soldiers eating their sarnies on the riverbank in 1814!

    Chris
    cheers m8 i thought the salmon and sturgeon sounded a bit doubtfull...its deffo full of roach though

    ---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Hi Georgie, these pics are excellent, where is its location? Have you got a map?
    cheers kev ill pm you the location

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie View Post
    Georgie's been up one of Sh$t sluices on the Mersey wall.

    What ae you wading through in the second pic,Georgie?

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Hopeyou disinfected yourself after that scramble.
    alright m8 nahh it was fresh water that m8 from the parks...or near fresh we think it met a sewer overflow some distance down but we didnt go that far but im going back soon to do the full length and hopefullt get to the dock wall where it spits out

    that pic is my m8 kev wading through the water in the collapsed part

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    As there were couple fishermen's cottages,in that area,till around the 1920's, I can only wonder what sort of fish they did catch? Before the industrialisation of the Mersey,and consequent pollution,apparently, the fishing was good!

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Found these couple of pic's, which give some idea of the area in the early 20th century.Salmon are reported to be thriving,in the Mersey!


    Photo's courtesy of L.R.O.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by wsteve55; 12-31-2010 at 01:05 AM. Reason: addition.

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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    Is Knott's Hole one that escaped from Blackburn? OR Was Blackburn full to the brim by that time?

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    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    I saw the Otterspool 10 or 11 years ago (the field by the derelict cafe was flooded).

    Toxteth streams:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200802082...eams/index.htm
    The book to get about these watercourses is:
    The History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxteth (Griffiths)
    (the bookshop in St. Johns market sells their own cheap version).

    Liverpool City Council Strategic Flood Risk Assessment 2008:
    http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-117000.pdf
    Extracts from the above document Re:River Jordan:
    A small number of reported incidences in 1967 and 1992. Roads,
    gardens and houses.
    1967 – 1 reported incident location flooding once a year
    One other record stating ‘periodic’ flooding at Aigburth Road
    1992 – Approx. 2 incident locations
    Additional description from 1989 study:
    Flooding has occurred between Aigburth Vale and Ashfield Road.
    Whilst the primary drainage functions has been transferred to a
    nearby sewer, the overflow from Sefton Park boating lake still
    follows the line, in culvert of the original river channel.

    Sefton Park Lake to Jericho Court considered to have some
    structural defects (3), with the exception of one point which
    was considered to have serious structural defects (4). The
    remainder of the Jordan River towards the River Mersey is
    considered to have serious structural defects (4), with one
    section collapsed (5).

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    Senior Member fortinian's Avatar
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    The culvert was also used as a source of power for a mill erected on the site and eventually converted into a dock. The Mill was originally a snuff-mill and more than likely was a water-mill, operated by the stream. It was converted into an Oil Mill. Here is the only surviving image of it:Click image for larger version. 

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    The mill was built by a company of merchants called Tate, Alexander and Wilson in 1779. They also 'enclosed part of the strand' at this point. It remained in operation until 1812 when it was converted to an Oil Mill by John Moss. The Mill was demolished in the early years of the 20th century.

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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    Fortinian, The same image, slightly clearer, here...

    http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/...ool/otters.htm

  12. #12
    georgie t
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    we had a little return to this culvert but this time we concentrated on section 1 however it was cut short a bit by kevs cam going into the drink and with it not working we decided to call it a day and return at a later date

    kevsy21











  13. #13
    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Amazing Georgie! Feels like I've been there
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    I admire your optimism Georgie, there is light at the end of the tunnel in the last picture.

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    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    Could make a good horror film based in places like that. Good stuff as always

  16. #16
    georgie t
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Amazing Georgie! Feels like I've been there
    cheers kev

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Oudeis View Post
    I admire your optimism Georgie, there is light at the end of the tunnel in the last picture.
    cheers bud nah that pic is a lighting effect kev had a light shining round the corner and the red is off my headlamp came out quite good

    ---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by scouse smurf View Post
    Could make a good horror film based in places like that. Good stuff as always
    cheers m8 it is like a horror set down there always expecting something to come running out


    we are not done yet though m8 ...watch this space

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    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    How many tetanus shots do you need to go down there?

  18. #18
    georgie t
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    How many tetanus shots do you need to go down there?
    ha ha i havent had any good protective clothing is essential though

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