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Thread: Reopening The Canada Dock Line (Dec 2010)

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    www.oldliverpoolrailways. oritelad's Avatar
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    Default Reopening The Canada Dock Line (Dec 2010)

    Has anyone got any resent news on the reopening of this branch? I cant believe how long this is taking, Liverpool never reopen old lines! why?


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    also as the line is currently use as a goods only line would it be possible to open it again to passengers? how would it work?

    if this line did reopen we would see the following stations:

    Liverpool Central (link to other lines)
    Moorfields (link to other lines)
    Vauxhall (link to other lines)
    Hodson (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    London Road (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    Brownlow Hill (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    Edge Hill (link to other lines)
    Edge Lane
    Stanley
    Breck Road
    Tuebrook
    Anfield (For football stadiums)
    Spellow
    Kirkdale (link to other lines)
    Bootle Orriel Road (link to other lines)
    Bootle New Strand (link to other lines)
    Linacare road
    Ford
    Aintree Racecourse (direct access from city line to Aintree)
    Fazakerley (new station close to old station Barlows Lane)
    Kirkby (link to other lines)

    This idea would close the current Kirkby branch but people can get Southport train and get the Kirkby train at one of the Bootle stations to cut down travel time. the current Rice Lane station is not needed as Walton station is right next to it also Fazakerly Station would be replaced by a new station very near the old site

    also other stations could open of this branch

    http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps/newline.jpg

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    Senior Member merseywail's Avatar
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    I take it you have heard about the credit crunch, financial crisis, spending review, cutbacks etc . The con/dem government has given the go-ahead for electrification between Liverpool/Manchester, which surprised me, & for other north west transport projects. This branch line was little used even in its heyday with stations closing in 1948 . A major scheme like this (with very dubious benefits) has absolutely no chance. The only hope for this line will be if a new Anfield ground goes ahead, & that's doubtful. Ask again in 5/6 years..
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    Railway Signal Engineer mikewturner's Avatar
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    Not sure where you get all this from but the only stations planned for that line are Edge Lane, Tue Book and Anfield.

    Please don't quote things in this factual manner if you can't back them up.

    Regards

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by oritelad View Post
    Has anyone got any resent news on the reopening of this branch? I cant believe how long this is taking, Liverpool never reopen old lines! why?

    also as the line is currently use as a goods only line would it be possible to open it again to passengers? how would it work?

    if this line did reopen we would see the following stations:

    Liverpool Central (link to other lines)
    Moorfields (link to other lines)
    Vauxhall (link to other lines)
    Hodson (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    London Road (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    Brownlow Hill (new underground station in old Waterloo tunnel)
    Edge Hill (link to other lines)
    Edge Lane
    Stanley
    Breck Road
    Tuebrook
    Anfield (For football stadiums)
    Spellow
    Kirkdale (link to other lines)
    Bootle Orriel Road (link to other lines)
    Bootle New Strand (link to other lines)
    Linacare road
    Ford
    Aintree Racecourse (direct access from city line to Aintree)
    Fazakerley (new station close to old station Barlows Lane)
    Kirkby (link to other lines)

    This idea would close the current Kirkby branch but people can get Southport train and get the Kirkby train at one of the Bootle stations to cut down travel time. the current Rice Lane station is not needed as Walton station is right next to it also Fazakerly Station would be replaced by a new station very near the old site

    also other stations could open of this branch

    http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps/newline.jpg

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    That link refers you to page 103 of the SSC thread but I can't see where it lists all those stations?

    I could see a reason for having football fans arriving at Cherry Lane (close to both grounds)
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    Senior Member Rhoobarb's Avatar
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    That'd be one long and winding service. It goes all over the north end.

    How do you get it from Aintree to Fazakerly as well, you'd send it towards town on the Ormskirk line then change it to the Kirkby line sending it through Rice Lane anyway.

    That route makes no sense at all.
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    Hi all... Im a new member on Yo, but I have been lurking in the corner for a long time!

    I have followed this thread with interest. Local newspapers have run stories about the progress of the possible reopening of the Bootle Branch line.

    LINK.. I hope it is of interest:-

    http://www.bootletimes.co.uk/news/bo...7007-25039138/

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    www.oldliverpoolrailways. oritelad's Avatar
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    Thank you Pudlian

    This is what I was talking about take a look at this Merseyrail network map it could look like this someday

    http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...eyrailmap3.jpg

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    Senior Member merseywail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oritelad View Post
    Thank you Pudlian

    This is what I was talking about take a look at this Merseyrail network map it could look like this someday

    http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...eyrailmap3.jpg
    You might have a very long wait, i would say not in your great great grandsons lifetime. You really have absolutely no idea how the world works do you ? Grand plans like this will never happen, some of the lines in the map never carried enough passengers even in their heyday
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    www.oldliverpoolrailways. oritelad's Avatar
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    haha I know shame though maybe someday hundreds of years from now it could look like that.

    maybe this map is more realistic http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...seyrailmap.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pudlian View Post
    Hi all... Im a new member on Yo, but I have been lurking in the corner for a long time!

    I have followed this thread with interest. Local newspapers have run stories about the progress of the possible reopening of the Bootle Branch line.

    LINK.. I hope it is of interest:-

    http://www.bootletimes.co.uk/news/bo...7007-25039138/
    Hi Pudlian,welcome to Yo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsteve55 View Post
    Hi Pudlian,welcome to Yo!
    You are my favorite, always friendly to greet new comer

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    Senior Member merseywail's Avatar
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    Not very likely with this government. I doubt the kirkby line would be diverted via the north Mersey branch, or a station at Mount Pleasant too ,(on a very busy & cramped site). Thing's you have missed out which may happen one day are electrification extensions to Preston, Wigan, Heswall, & possibly Warrington. Though i doubt anything is likely to happen for a very long time..
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    Senior Member merseywail's Avatar
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    The latest news from Merseytravel, is a very good example as to why the Canada dock line is unlikely to ever reopen
    Budget cuts hit Merseyside hard14 December 2010 Merseytravel’s block funding grant from the Department for Transport has been slashed by two thirds, with the Chairman of the transport authority Councillor Mark Dowd warning of severe repercussions on future transport projects.

    Councillor Dowd said:”Never in our most pessimistic forecasts did we anticipate such a crippling and savage cut.

    “Having already dealt with a 25% cut of our 17million allocation during this financial year, we had made realistic budget predictions of receiving just over 13million next year. We now know we are going to get only 5.74million and this is going to have a severe impact on our future plans.

    “Currently we are reviewing all projects for next year, but my immediate reaction is that it will be difficult enough to maintain and operate what we have let alone think about improvements.

    “During my 28 years as a councillor I have never experienced such a financial savagery, these cuts are vicious”.


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    Quote Originally Posted by oritelad View Post
    haha I know shame though maybe someday hundreds of years from now it could look like that.

    maybe this map is more realistic http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...seyrailmap.jpg
    Hi

    Problem with this and the earlier map you posted is that for existing lines it just assumes former stations are reopened which is highly unlikely.

    Stations planned on the Bootle Branch are as follows (taken from an official source)

    Edge Lane - North of Edge Lane ie not old site which was south side
    Tue Brook - South of West Derby Road ie not old site which was north side
    Utting Avenue - serving Liverpool Stadia
    Bootle Oriel Road - reinstate platform face
    Bootle New Strand - reinstate platform face

    And thats it...

    Regards

    Mike

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    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    They have only revamped Oriel road fairly recently so if there any plans in the pipeline surely they would have made allowences
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    Railway Signal Engineer mikewturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregs dad View Post
    They have only revamped Oriel road fairly recently so if there any plans in the pipeline surely they would have made allowences
    A renewals project would be funded from a different pot to an enhancement so joined up thinking isn't always that easy...

    Mike

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    This has all been discussed very extensively in the past. Even if Merseytravel had 50m to spare, as opposed to the paltry 5m provided for by the DfT, these projects would never go ahead. Everyone knows they make sense, and this has been debated, as I have said.

    I've had a meeting with Dave Jones, a bigwig from Merseyrail, as part of my MSc Urban Renewal circa 2009, and all I got was negativity right from the outset. People need to understand that the powers at be are eternally pessimistic, and they don't give a stuff about your local transport network. Why would they, when all they do is eat biscuits all day in their cosy offices? Oh, not to mention all that tea they go through. People who post potential future maps are nieve in the extreme.... I've researched all this to great depth, and spoke with some senior figures, including Dowd himself.

    No-one has the vision and determination to make these projects happen. Funding is of course paramount, but do the bigwigs really care that much? To be fair to the Southport councillor (John Pugh), he took the issue of the Burscough Curves all the way to the House of Commons, and there is indeed a video of his argument somewhere out there....
    He is, however, an exception to the rule. His case is absolutely 100% valid. Nevermind all this "but we need a viable business case.. blah blah blah", there can be no more valid argument than that of CHOICE.

    Transport opens doors where there once were none. It provides opportunites of travel. It provides choice. Not everyone can drive. Not everyone who can drive can travel to work/shops/meetings/etc, by public transport. It takes me 40 mins to drive to work (Atherton). In order for me to travel by public transport, I would need a 15 min walk to my nearest train station... a 10 min train to Ormskirk... a wait of [,,,], a 5 min train to Burscough Junction... a 10 min walk to Burscough Bridge... a wait of [...], a 30 min train to Atherton... a wait of [...], and a bus journey of 10 mins....

    In conclusion, what choice do people like myself have, other than to travel to work by car, every bleeding day? Why should I care about the environment, when the government simply do not care about proposing a long-term (and very serious) transport strategy, that really does try to curb car usage, and provide everyone with a rail network fit for the 21st century?

    You cynics who argue, "Ah but who's going to use Tuebrook station etc etc".... Absolute pessimism and negativity - the sort employed by councillors and transport chiefs. In order for disused lines to reopen and be successful (all over the country), there needs to be a very broad strategy that actively discourages car users, and encourages public transport usage. It's all about policy, which is of course, determined by attitude. And politicians, ever since the 1950s, have regarded the rail network as frivolous and irrelevant - rather like the bus network (another shambles, but I have no time for these jurassic modes of transport).

    This argument is cyclical, rather like the rail network itself... it is going nowhere, and we are all getting left behind... paying the price - quite literally.

    ---------- Post added 01-12-2011 at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-11-2011 at 11:49 PM ----------

    While I'm at it...

    Oritelad: your maps look great, but do you expect these lines to ever go ahead? I admire your enthusiasm, but why continue working on them maps, when nothing will ever happen?

    Liverpool Central... What an absolute disgrace. What can I say? Station refurbishment? Who are they kidding?
    Southport.... Architecturally speaking, very poor. Out of character with a nice town.
    Blackpool North.... Truly vulgar. What sort of welcome to Blackpool is that?

    Naturally, everyone on here is only concerned with Merseyside's (disused) lines. If only I were studying something more advanced than an MSc, I (and most of you, I'm sure) would love to examine the North West's rail network, and its vast potential, in fine detail. The whole of England would surely be too large for one man to investigate?! But a quick glance on Google Maps (satellite imagery) quite clearly shows where a lot of our old lines used to connect to, and so many of these lines and links are simply lying there dormant, untouched (obviously not the tracks).
    And so the pain and misery continues, as one zooms in and out of Google Maps, identifying the old lines, and finding out that many of them COULD still have a future, if only the government really cared.
    Leigh is a tragic example. A tragic town itself, nevertheless, for it to not have any rail connection at all is scandalous. I was very surprised to find the Germanic town of Wolfsburg did not have a tram network... but to not have any rail access? The people in charge of these decisions back in the 1960s have a lot to answer for. I'm pretty certain Dr. Beeching did not just pick on crappy Northern towns, as the South was equally decimated.
    Having witnessed at first hand, the sheer professionalism and intelligence of the GMPTE, it would not surprise me if they magically created a tram link as far as Leigh one day, but fair play to that particular PTE..... THINGS GET DONE IN MANCHESTER.

    The Burscough Curves... such a simple case... but alas... the people of Ormskirk and Southport must live with a 1960s bus service. Pathetic.

    The Aintree-Bootle line.... Would this really cost that much? Don't be so negative you cynics! Allow the people of Merseyside to travel!

    The Canada Dock Branch.... a far more complex affair, what with all those freight trains milling about... but where there's a will there's a way. Davey Jones' attitude toward this line is typically negative... "There are already many buses serving Tuebrook etc..." Pathetic response.

    The Tunnels.... heavy rail... light rail... who cares? They have great potential... but they will sadly never come into play.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Because the Canada Dock Branch is being electrified it is rife for immediate reopening within a few years using Liverpool FC a financial enabler. Merseytravel only have this line and the North Mersey Branch (Aintree to Bootle) in mind in the short to mid-term. Merseytravel have all sorts of lines ready to fund as priorities over Liverpool city which expand Merseyrail outwards, while ignoring the city of Liverpool, its inner-cities and its in-place rail infrastructure.

    The Council sensibly think Liverpool FC and Everton FC can both be on the disused eastern section of the Outer Loop line forming the originally planned Outer Loop, using the clubs as financial enablers, and are pushing for reopening the line. They are hoping that cash from the clubs and the CC receding will ensure funds within a few years. Just having the OUter Loop operational without the Broad Green junction may be the first stage.

    The current electrification of the Liverpool to Manchester, Wigan, St.Helens, Huyton lines may entail that the tunnel connection between Liverpool central underground section and Edge Hill (the Edge Hill Spur project) connecting the east of the city is built after 35-40 years of waiting. A major cost of the project, the electrification, is paid for.

    So:
    1. Canada Dock Branch Line - only if LFC stay at Stanley Park which they deem not suitable as it is restricted to only 60,000.
    2. Outer Loop - If LFC move to a new location on the line along with Everton FC who would also move to a location on the line.
    3. Edge HIll Spur

    My gut feeling is that No. 1 will go ahead within 3 three years as LFC will stay at Stanley Park, followed by No. 3 within 6-7 years.
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