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Thread: Slavery Streets

  1. #31
    Member Terry's Avatar
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    Well it was a silly idea in the first place,(who on earth thinks these ideas up).Whilst The Slave Trade was awful to say the least,so were many other grizzly things at that time.But we cannot be held responsible for what our fathers or forefathers did.How long must we be made to feel guilty for!.
    I wish i had half the problems these Councillors seem to have if this is all they have to worry about.
    Have we really got to the stage where there is nothing of major importance for local Councils to do than to allow some dimwit to change the name of some streets because of something that happened way before our time.
    Id love to meet these people who are so offended.They are living in another world they really are,are they really so AFFECTED by this.
    Perhaps the council will consider offering councelling (at Tax Payers expence)to those affected by this decision.


  2. #32
    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Slavery Street names:
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  3. #33
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi Kevin

    My impression of this proposal is that it was knocked on the head when it was realised that Penny

    Lane would have to be renamed. Was that your impression or was there more to the reason why the proposal was rejected?

    Chris
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  4. #34
    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Kevin

    My

    impression of this proposal is that it was knocked on the head when it was realised that Penny Lane would have to be renamed.
    That seemed to have

    put the plans in the dustbin.
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  5. #35
    PhilipG
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    I wonder how many of the inhabitants of Liverpool could name even one Liverpool slave

    trader before this barmy idea was suggested?
    I know a little about Local History, but have to put my hand up and say I couldn't have named even one.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzacat View Post
    Pure garbage. Why try to deny history? It puts me in mind of when a long established pub changes owners, who give it a new, flavour of the month name. You would have thought the councillors would have something better to do that debate this kind of nonsense.
    I wonder if the same line of thinking, (delete it demolish it and all that jazz) brought the original cavern crashing down?
    Liverpool can't hide its shame by changing street names!
    When and if she acomplishes the changes, will she then propose a change for the name, 'Liverpool'. Where will it all end?

  7. #37
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george roberts View Post
    Kev-I have a theory and I want to bounce it about to see how it measures up to reality.
    My theory is that the original cavern club premises was, at some point in it's history. 'A slave hold'.
    Further to that, I think that the old building was connected in some way or other to the waterfront, 'underground'.
    The topography between that building in mathew street, down to, what is now the museum of slavery, lends a little credence to that notion!
    Do you have a thought on that?
    Hello George

    Your theory is highly unlikely since as we have said here many times, few slaves actually reached Liverpool, the purpose of the triangular trade route being expressly to take them to the Americas where they would work on the plantations. A better theory, if you are going to pick the Cavern, might be that rock and roll enslaved youngsters of the Sixties. . .

    Chris
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  8. #38
    Creator & Administrator Kev's Avatar
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    Default Slavery Streets

    Penny Lane

    Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist.

    James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves.

    Penny was one of several traders from Liverpool who spoke in favour of the slave trade at a parliamentary committee.

    Penny told the committee that he had invested in eleven voyages of ships carrying slaves from Africa to the West Indies. His ships were between 200-300 tons and usually carried between 500 to 600 slaves in a single voyage. Of these approximately two thirds of the slaves were male and one third female.

    'An advantageous trade'

    The Lords Committee of Council was set up in February 1788 to investigate the slave trade.

    In evidence James Penny voiced his opinion that the trade was humane “…that he found himself impelled, both by humanity and interest, to pay every possible attention both to the preservation of the crew and the slaves.

    "Great improvements have been made at Liverpool within these twenty years in the construction of the ships." - James Penny in 1788


    “The slaves here will sleep better than the gentlemen do on shore.”

    The slave trader was presented with a silver table in 1792 for speaking out against the abolition of slavery.

    Liverpool traders were anxious to preserve the slave trade which had made large profits for many of them and was the source of much of the city’s wealth.

    The parliamentary minutes record James Penny’s conviction that ending the trade would cause great harm to Liverpool, “…Mr Penny being asked, whether he conceives this trade to be a profitable one in general to the Merchant?

    “Replied, he thinks it, upon the whole, an advantageous trade; and added, he would have to beg leave to observe, that should this trade be abolished, it would not only greatly affect the commercial interest, but also the landed property of the County of Lancaster and more particularly, the Town of Liverpool; whose fall, in that case, would be as rapid as its rise has been astonishing.”

    James Penny was insistent that the slave trade should be allowed to continue “…the Slave Ships at Liverpool are built on purpose for this trade, and are accommodated with air ports and gratings for the purpose of keeping the slaves cool.

    “Great improvements have been made at Liverpool within these twenty years in the construction of the ships. The space between the decks is sufficiently large to contain the number of negroes above-mentioned and is plained, very smooth and painted.”

    source...
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  9. #39
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Default Penny Lane and the slave trader James Penny

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Penny Lane

    Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist.

    James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves.

    I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,

  10. #40
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,
    Hi Taffy

    Could we find out if James Penny had any connection to the area around Penny Lane? Possibly he owned property in the area. If he didn't and it is determined that he didn't have a connection with the area, I would agree that it might be unlikely that Penny Lane is named after him.

    Chris
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  11. #41
    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,
    I have to say when I was doing research for my book I found nothing on Penny Lane, yet there were many sources of information on other streets linked to slave traders (and abolitionists such as Binns and Rathbone). I like you guessed it was something to do with older times than the slave trade as most lanes were in existence prior to the mid 1700s,but as I found no clear indications either way left it out altogether.

  12. #42
    Senior Member mickeydoolan's Avatar
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    Default Penny Lane

    Just for fun go through the song & note what it is about. You'll find that the whole thing is about the tram terminus, not the lane.

  13. #43
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    Yes, it should be called Smithdown Place.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  14. #44
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeydoolan View Post
    Just for fun go through the song & note what it is about. You'll find that the whole thing is about the tram terminus, not the lane.
    Undoubtedly. And as you indicate, the tram/bus terminus or stop was not in Penny Lane at all, but technically "Smithdown Place" as Ged mentions. Still, I'd say in conversation, we probably thought of that stop as being "Penny Lane" all the same, as Lennon and McCartney did when they wrote the song.
    Christopher T. George
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  15. #45
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Undoubtedly. And as you indicate, the tram/bus terminus or stop was not in Penny Lane at all, but technically "Smithdown Place" as Ged mentions. Still, I'd say in conversation, we probably thought of that stop as being "Penny Lane" all the same, as Lennon and McCartney did when they wrote the song.
    It might have been at Smithdown Place, but the black/white sign on the front of the bus did say "Penny Lane" just like the album cover, IIRC.

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