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Thread: Wirral Waters Planning Approved

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Default Wirral Waters Planning Approved

    The over plan of Wirral Waters has been approved by the council
    Wirral Waters Plans



    Unless rapid-transit rail (Merseyrail) is run in, none, or little, of this will materialize. None is planned.

    Wirral Waters can be fed like this, and/or from Bidston. All is there.

    Red: is the disused Birkenhead Dock Branch Line
    Green: Birkenhead central Station
    Yellow: is the Wirral Line



    If it is demand driven then nothing will get done. It needs to be the other way around - proactive. The Merseyrail metro run in will be the catalyst to attract developers - being proactive. That is what made Docklands in London.

    Nice renders, unless serious rapid-transit rail is run in, that is all it will be.


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    I water space filling-in - land by stealth.

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    how it once was?


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    Lindsay Ashworth of Peel said there are four rail stations in the scheme. Perhaps the application documents are still available to look at.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gero View Post
    Lindsay Ashworth of Peel said there are four rail stations in the scheme. Perhaps the application documents are still available to look at.
    Maybe he means lumbering transit trams - ding, ding. There are NO rapid-transit Merseyrail stations directly at Wirral Waters for sure.

    The scheme will fail unless rapid-transit rail is at the complex.

    Peel are into lucrative land by stealth by filling in water spaces.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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    Newbie gero's Avatar
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    I haven't seen the application documents. Perhaps someone here has?

    There aren't any trams proposed but I did find the transportation report here: http://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/pdf/Pl...ent_Report.pdf which does seem to refer to the upgrades in service via the existing stations necessary to meet the increased traffic generated by the development.

    Also, I can't see any dock infilling from the accompanying masterplan.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    They partially fill and reduce depths to canal boat depths. They are doing this around Vittoria Dock/East Float.

    They have reduced the depths of docks in Liverpool city centre precluding deep water ships. The tall ships can not berth in the city centres docks as this mill town based company has made the docks into mill town canals. Totally out of character of the port.

    Liverpool's heritage is deep water. The last council were mainly to blame for allowing all this rape of our heritage to happen. Peel only think of short term money. Now Wirral are being duped as well.

    The key to London's Docklands was the DLR metro. It was built first to attract investment. Without rapid-transit right to this Wirral Waters complex it will fail - lets face it they are trying to move the centre of the Wirral to here, with Wirral wanting a city created out of all the towns. You always have the rail into the centre connecting the rest of the city/town.

    Ideally they need a tunnel under the East float connecting Wirral Waters, Wallasey and Birkenhead and Liverpool. Draining the East Float and using cut and cover tunneling under, will affect shipping business, so a bored tunnel is the only way.

    Everything I have read about Wirral Waters and Liverpool Waters tell me Peel are not serious enough and have only one agenda - land by stealth. None of their renders will materialize like they portray. Probably a lot of shed type buildings , like a Tescos, or the Arena at Kings Dock.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

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    Quote Originally Posted by gero View Post
    Lindsay Ashworth of Peel said there are four rail stations in the scheme. Perhaps the application documents are still available to look at.

    Look at the FAQ on the web site under "location"

    I bet she is talking about the existing stations on the Wirral Line

    Hamilton Sq.
    Conway Park
    Birkenhead Park
    Birkenhead North

    and perhaps stretching it to a 5th at Bidston....

    http://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/content/location.php

    Click the "+" button 3 times...

    ----------------------

    Is Merseyside growing fast enough to need that much housing, or will it just suck people out of existing housing creating "empty spots" elsewhere in the city?

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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    I bet she is talking about the existing stations on the Wirral Line
    that she is.

    Is Merseyside growing fast enough to need that much housing, or will it just suck people out of existing housing creating "empty spots" elsewhere in the city?
    Merseyside is short of decent housing as well as short full stop.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

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    Newbie gero's Avatar
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    So it seems Peel have shown that the existing stations with an upgraded service adequately caters for the planned demand.

    I'm sure if Birkenhead wants to add lines and light railways etc, then Peel would be more than happy to take advantage but there doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason for them to commit to anything more than what they have proposed.

    As for infilling docks, shipping will still cross the East Float to get to the West Float in the northern channel of the east float and leisure boats (a marina) will be segregated into the southern. There is an area of other leisure activities (only suggested as this is an outline consent).

    Docks are or were built to make money. The history of the port (as I am sure you all know) is one of expansion northwards as shipping got ever bigger and heavier. Again you will all know, even Seaforth is being overtaken by post-panamax sized vessels and now even post-post-panamax. It really is incredibly difficult to find alternative and financially viable uses for old docks that are just too small, beyond tourism (in the case of the oldest docks) and leisure.

    It's doesn't help the city to get back onto it's feet and it's a waste of time and effort to preserve these 'dark tanks' in the hope that deep water shipping will return. It's simply not going to happen

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gero View Post
    So it seems Peel have shown that the existing stations with an upgraded service adequately caters for the planned demand.

    I'm sure if Birkenhead wants to add lines and light railways etc, then Peel would be more than happy to take advantage but there doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason for them to commit to anything more than what they have proposed.

    As for infilling docks, shipping will still cross the East Float to get to the West Float in the northern channel of the east float and leisure boats (a marina) will be segregated into the southern. There is an area of other leisure activities (only suggested as this is an outline consent).

    Docks are or were built to make money. The history of the port (as I am sure you all know) is one of expansion northwards as shipping got ever bigger and heavier. Again you will all know, even Seaforth is being overtaken by post-panamax sized vessels and now even post-post-panamax. It really is incredibly difficult to find alternative and financially viable uses for old docks that are just too small, beyond tourism (in the case of the oldest docks) and leisure.

    It's doesn't help the city to get back onto it's feet and it's a waste of time and effort to preserve these 'dark tanks' in the hope that deep water shipping will return. It's simply not going to happen
    Birkenhead docks are not small. They are quite deep and can take quite large ships. Not all ships are post-Panamax. In fact few are. The water spaces are an attraction that can add value in future urban waterscapes. No one is saying the older smaller docks should left in a hope they will be reused. Although if the port was better run many of the docks would be commercially viable. Garston is and way up river and small. As are the berths on the lower ship canal.

    The waterspaces should not be be meddled with so a company can make money out of ruining them.

    You sound like an apologist for Peel.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

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    Docks are or were built to make money not to make urban landscape and I’m sure Peel make no apology for continuing to make them make money if they can. If they didn’t think they could, the docks would continue to rot where they stand.

    Neither are they, nor were they ever ‘urban landscapes’. There is nothing of landscape value to meddle with unless a penchant for melancholia and living in the past. They are empty and desolate as they are and a painful reminder of former glory unless and until new use and life can be found for them.

    Peel are bringing new life and prosperity to these redundant docks by finding new use rather than filling them in. They are creating new jobs and livelihoods and channelling investment of billions into the regeneration of the city.

    Incidentally, they are also providing enough trains to cater for the projected demand and creating the connectivity and ease of access essential to the scheme’s success. It's difficult to see why Peel would do otherwise.

    These docks have had their day but an owner with the energy and resources who will nevertheless keep them and make them great again is to be encouraged and congratulated.

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