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Thread: Julia Wallace Murder Case

  1. #991
    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Remember im new to these case details. So what I say is just what im seeing.

    If Parry was in it with Wallace then I agree with what Ged said. Why would Wallace name him to the police? makes no sense.

    Parry could have done it alone ( or with others ) Apart from what Parkes said then is there anything else that links him to it? He may have been a bad lad but that dont make you a killer. How do we know Parkes was telling the truth? We only seem to have his word.

    Is it true that the police tested Parry's car at Derby Lane Station? Did they find anything. Even if he had an alibi I would have thought with Parkes saying what he did then they would have grilled Parry.

    Myself I have no idea who did it. When presented with what Ged and Mark have written I can blame many but dismiss them as not enough to go on as well. Its all very interesting. I have no idea and I guess the different views will still be going on in another 80 years.

    Just one more thing. What if somebody unknown did get Wallace out the house on purpose then went to the house and killed Julia. They would have walked away as free as a bird first from the police and trial and second from those who have studied the case over the years. If that is the true then they comitted the perfect murder.

    Im just addicted to all this now
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    I went up there too as I was passing down Breck Road from my brothers in town to collect my daughter from Queens Drive, but it wasn't until 11pm when the house would have been swarming with police 80 years ago.

    It was very foggy and atmospheric, there had been fog in January 1931 but by the 29th and 30th had cleared and we had drizzle.

    I suspect Johnny blue was up there too at about 8pm as I texted him about the anniversary and he said he was in Anfield.
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    Hi John and welcome. I too eagerly await your publication.

    Something that jumps out right away at me is that Lily Lloyd's, her mother's and Parry's statement do not tally so he could have made the Qualtrough call?

    ---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenkethPedant View Post
    I haven`t read all the replies on this thread, but surely it has been decided that Wallace was innocent and that the murderer was Richard Gordon Parry, known to Wallace as a petty thief from his insurance work, who had a motive, who in effect `framed` Wallace very cleverly and whose apparent alibi has been broken by the admission, many years later, of the then young woman who provided it that she had in fact lied at the time. Plus, there is the account of a motor mechanic in Tue Brook that he noticed a bloodstained glove in Parry`s car soon after the murder. Parry had influential family connections which helped him avoid too detailed an investigation into his possible involvement. Wallace is reported to have suspected from early on that Parry was the killer.
    Adding all those things together there looks likes only one suspect, especially if you see the statements that John Gannon has posted too. However, Lily Lloyd's statement never covered Parry at the time of the murder anyway, it was Olivia Brines. Still, it does make you wonder if Lloyd was 'in on it' as in did Parry tell her to give him an alibi - or was it a woman scorned since it was after he discontinued his relationship with her.

    ---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Remember im new to these case details. So what I say is just what im seeing.

    If Parry was in it with Wallace then I agree with what Ged said. Why would Wallace name him to the police? makes no sense.

    Parry could have done it alone ( or with others ) Apart from what Parkes said then is there anything else that links him to it? He may have been a bad lad but that dont make you a killer. How do we know Parkes was telling the truth? We only seem to have his word.

    Is it true that the police tested Parry's car at Derby Lane Station? Did they find anything. Even if he had an alibi I would have thought with Parkes saying what he did then they would have grilled Parry.

    Myself I have no idea who did it. When presented with what Ged and Mark have written I can blame many but dismiss them as not enough to go on as well. Its all very interesting. I have no idea and I guess the different views will still be going on in another 80 years.

    Just one more thing. What if somebody unknown did get Wallace out the house on purpose then went to the house and killed Julia. They would have walked away as free as a bird first from the police and trial and second from those who have studied the case over the years. If that is the true then they comitted the perfect murder.

    Im just addicted to all this now
    Tony, i'm glad you're now hooked too, especially since you're local to some of the addresses that played a part in it all.

    It has been said that WHW would have to name Parry as a suspect, just to make it look real and so named a whole host of others to muddy the waters, however, I still don't think they were in anyway close enough to establish a hit-man/customer relationship - unless there was blackmail in the air from one party or the other?

    Parry had a grudge motive (WHW dobbing him in to the Pru) and possibly a sexual motive (if he was carrying on with Julia during these musical interludes and she was about to tell on him after refusing to discontinue them?) Even a robbery motive???

    See my earlier post about what the policeman said - that he could tell a story about the case after he retires. Also the son of one of the policemen who knew something of it?

    How about the conspiracy of silence theory given by Roger Wilkes in his book 'The final verdict' where he says the Parry elders (as in Richard's dad and Uncle being in authoritive positions within Liverpool Corporation and in collusion with the police to remove his son from the frame?
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  4. #994
    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Bloomin Eck Ged send me off on another trail.

    Yes his family could well have got him out of the frame. If Parry had a grudge then why wait so long to get Wallace back? Why not do Wallace himself in? Did he have an affair with Julia and plan to rip them off? did she threaten to spill the beans to her hubby? But why the phone call?

    This will go on forever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Bloomin Eck Ged send me off on another trail.

    Yes his family could well have got him out of the frame. If Parry had a grudge then why wait so long to get Wallace back? Why not do Wallace himself in? Did he have an affair with Julia and plan to rip them off? did she threaten to spill the beans to her hubby? But why the phone call?

    This will go on forever.
    I often wonder why not just do the deed whilst WHW is in the chess club unless the plan was to get him further out of town - unless of course, the plan was Wallace's?

    I think Parry doing William himself in would have been bang on, he certainly would have been No.1 suspect for that, but doing it this way was perhaps seen as a great way of getting to him - depriving him of his wife and getting him the blame to boot.

    Parry was a member of an amateur dramatics group so could have disguised his voice, not that Beattie would be that familiar with Parry's real voice anyway. Stephen Guy on the Radio Merseyside programme the other day said that Wallace having lived and worked in India and China could have disguised his voice. I thought Guy's reasoning behind some of his notions were a bit skewed but then it's all about opinions.

    ---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Acrosstheuniverse View Post
    I think Wallace was guilty as hell. I hope John posts an excerpt of his book here...after corresponding with him previously, he has certainly swayed my mind. I actually find it hard to envision a scenario in which Wallace could be innocent. I really have come around on this I do admit.

    But objectively speaking, there are numerous aspects of this case which absolutely smack of an inside job. I agree the verdict based on the evidence should have been 'not guilty.' Thinking someone is probably guilty is not the same as believing it beyond a reasonable doubt with real evidence to back it up. Looking at it years later however I think it is highly likely that Wallace was behind this crime.

    Somebody killed Julia Wallace with intense violence and force and that same person or the person who hired them conceived of an ingenius plan, one that is considered the ultimate perfect murder. I find it very hard to attribute this to a Parry type.
    Thanks for your opinion. Can you elaborate on why you think WHW is the murderer though. I'm always interested to hear differing opinions and my mind isn't totally closed on this one at all.
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  6. #996
    Senior Member Mark R's Avatar
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    Yes Ged the Monday... Some have said to me; "Why didn't the killer do it on the Monday?" I always reply to that - Wallace's takings were at their highest on the Tuesday (the day before his usual deposit). I also say "Well, why didn't Wallace kill her then set off for chess club on the Monday?" See? Same again - it can work either way!
    As regards the 'voice' - I find it more dubious that Wallace would use a box so near to his home. A voice may possibly be disguised but a 6"2 insurance man takes more disguising
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    Ged, I think first of all there was obviously an ingenious plot at play here...complete with the Qualtrough call etc. I think it is plainly clear by now that Parry made that call...the question is did Wallace put him up to it?

    The only two options seem to be either Wallace is guilty or Parry is guilty...(well he's guilty in either scenario but I mean of murder.) To accept Wallace's innocence..one must them assume Parry set this whole thing up....as a botched robbery? As Mark has pointed out I think before...it was not a very profitable loot and I can't remember the specifics but something about Wallace's sickness and not having a lot of money on that particular night...something Parry probably knew about...even if he didn't...to go to all that trouble to rob Wallace? After Wallace had fingered him for dishonesty already?

    No, if we think Parry is guilty then we are saying he is guilty of premeditated murder, the perfect crime...with nothing but a fiendish, bizarre revenge at a terrible personal risk to him. Parry strikes me as a con-man type and a low level ladies man hustler. I cannot believe he set this whole thing up and killed poor Julia Wallace...and hoped to frame William. Surely he must have known he would face considerable suspicion and that Wallace would finger him...no Parry did not conceive of this plot or do this murder.

    Like I said....I'm not at the point where I'm ready to convict...the jury is still out....but I do not have a good feeling about Wallace. And I believed for many years he was innocent.

    just wanted to add that I watched Man from the Pru for the first time last night...pretty good performances by Wallace and Parry actors. Of course your heart breaks for Wallace in the movie as it strongly suggests at Parry's guilt. The score is quite good.

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    Then we have what Parry told Whittington-Egan and about how he promised his father that not even for money would he expand on his knowledge of the case. Then saying Wallace was peculiar and inferred about him being sexually odd?

    How about it was nothing to do with Parry at all? That seems harder to reconcile than that Wallace was guilty.

    Was a statement taken from Parkes/Mr Atkinson reference their bloodied glove story? Why wasn't it followed up, the iron bar down the drain - it is know the police searched locally for the weapon before this statement and couldn't find it.
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    Senior Member johnny blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    I went up there too as I was passing down Breck Road from my brothers in town to collect my daughter from Queens Drive, but it wasn't until 11pm when the house would have been swarming with police 80 years ago.

    It was very foggy and atmospheric, there had been fog in January 1931 but by the 29th and 30th had cleared and we had drizzle.

    I suspect Johnny blue was up there too at about 8pm as I texted him about the anniversary and he said he was in Anfield.
    Certainly was Ged, had a stroll down Priory Road , looking across towards the location of the phonebox. In despite of the dirty weather there was alot of people on Priory Road last night , probably more 80 years ago, (everyone walked then) in addition, I kept looking down at the grids where the murder weapon could have possibly been thrown, also looking at who could be opportunist burglars.... Intrigueing.

  10. #1000
    Senior Member Mark R's Avatar
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    You're right of course Ged - Parry did say that about Wallace. I find idea that would discuss his sexual preferences with Parry as highly dubious
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  11. #1001
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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    I concur fully with your opinion acrosstheuniverse! I think each writer in each decade has made an arugment based on the material available at that time.Until GOODMAN you either thought WHW did kill his wife or you didnt(I was always of the opinion that he couldnt possibly have committed the murder..for all the obvious reasons)then we had an alternative suspect who became PARRY in ROGER WILKES Radio/Book "WHO KILLED JULIA"..I was then very happy to "hang" R.G.PARRY,who as you say was surely QUALTROUGH.But it wasnt till MURPHY that, for me,a viable motive was unearthed..that JULIA was nearly 70 and seems to have lied regularly about her age(I know all women do,but surely not by that much!!) From what I know of the forthcoming John Gannon book,we can now expect some more new pieces in the jigsaw puzzle. Reading LILY LLOYD'S MOTHER's witness statement..she actually mentions LESLIE WILLIAMSON who phoned the Radio Station in Jan.1981 during the live phone-in after the programme..of course nobody in the studio realized the full significance of just who they had on the lin & let him go!! There is so much posting on the thread at the moment its difficult to know where to start...long may it continue IAN(FJumble)

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    Yes, what a big fish to let go - and also the Clubmoor picture house manager rang in - where Lily Lloyd played the old joanna.
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    This is one great thread! The one book I want to read is James Murphy's investigation. As the book is something like 45.00 online, I had a look at the online library service and Kensington Library have a copy, so I may give them a ring tomorrow.

    Some of the names being mentioned as possible suspects I've not heard of before, like Marsden. He is mentioned very briefly in the books I have, but only in passing. I'm going to read the statements that JG has put on later, which I'm looking forward to.

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    Thanks GED,YES,Roger Wilkes/Jonathan Goodman certainly gave the picture house Manager plenty of questions,I think his name was Ted Jackson & very interesting he was...In the programme itself they interviewed the telephonist,who as a young girl, took the actual call from QUALTROUGH..I forget her name(it was something like Margaret Kelly) but she was then living in USA I think(?) I remember her saying it was a very ordinary voice & they remembered it especially because of the fuss the caller made about his "non-connection" I remember, at the time, thinking would WHW have drawn attention to himself..especially so near to his house! Regards IAN (FJumble)

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    Senior Member Mark R's Avatar
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    Yes Ian that's right. I have the recording of the Who Killed Julia? Programme. It was Lilian Martha Kelly and yes, she was living in New York at the time (1980-81). The operators also said that RMQ pronounced cafe as ca-fay (incidentally, there is a cafe opened yards away from no.24 on North John Street called the Cafay...)
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    Thanks MARK.did you also record the aftermath phone in with Ted Jackson/Russell Johnston/Leslie Williamson etc etc ??? I've just been re-reading(must get a life!!) James Murphy's version of how the naked WHW killed his wife,had a bath then was on a tram miles away at 7.06 pm... its so bad it rather spoils an excellent book!! IAN(FJumble)

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAN DAVID FRYER View Post
    Thanks MARK.did you also record the aftermath phone in with Ted Jackson/Russell Johnston/Leslie Williamson etc etc ??? I've just been re-reading(must get a life!!) James Murphy's version of how the naked WHW killed his wife,had a bath then was on a tram miles away at 7.06 pm... its so bad it rather spoils an excellent book!! IAN(FJumble)
    Hi Ian no, I don't have the aftermath phone in. Get a life? Nonsense. What would we have to talk about?
    Yes, I am in complete agreement with you regarding James Murphy's book. It is an excellent account. I just don't believe Wallace had the time to do all the things he would have had to do and without avoiding blood spatter. It was also pretty well investigated regarding the bath being used and tests showed that it hadn't. I know techniques of the day left a lot to be desired but I think if the bath would have been used, especially with so much blood being spilt, police and forensics wouldn't have failed to notice something.
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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    So Parry's alibi for 19th January is full of holes?
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    Three problems with Murphy's book/hypothesis:

    -The notion Wallace made the call. Sorry, but no way Beattie wouldn't recognize him. Never mind that he 'wasn't expecting' to him and therefore didn't pick up on it. And no way Wallace would risk being heard (never mind being seen!) to make that call. One slip up or the slightest suspicion from Beattie and he would be toast.

    -The timing is ludicrous. Even if one believes Wallace did acheive it in exactly that amount of time, the problem becomes could he plot beforehand and allow himself such a tight time?...if anything goes even slightly wrong...takes a minute too long and he's screwed. The timing is precariously tight (and Murphy's setting it back to 6:35 from 6:45 with such certainty is laughable) but even assuming a miracle, it is way too iffy to be planned out as such. Murphy's counter-argument to this is Wallace could make his timeframe up as he went along and then leave immediately to create the perfect alibi. Um...does Murphy forget Wallace had the fixed appointment time of 7:30 with Qualtrough? I believe the murder happened later (at around 7:30) when Wallace was out being seen mid-trip searching for Qualtrough. It was only the poor work of J Mcfall and the picking apart of the milk boy's initial 6:45 statement that created doubt in the juror's minds of Wallace's perfect alibi. Of course I believe Wallace planned the murder, so I don't feel too sorry for him that his perfect plan fell apart a little bit.

    -Lastly, Murphy doesn't even attempt to explain how the drains could be free of blood. I have heard some explanations that while straining credulity a bit, are at least somewhat plausible invoving caustic materials and such. But Murphy doesn't even address the idea. Of course, if Wallace did have to clean the drains, this would have added to the timeframe required.

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    There is so much that supports the "Parry & A.N. Other did it together" theory then. Far, far more, imho, than supports any other theory.
    John Parkes saying "Parry & A.N. Other" tried to lean on him afterwards is the icing on the cake.

    Case closed, I think.
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    Rod do you think Wallace was involved or not?

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    No, Wallace wasn't involved. Parry set him up. He had the means, motive and opportunity.
    Parry also knew he would be a suspect, so had to recruit A.N. Other to burglarise the house, posing as Qualtrough. It went wrong and Julia died.
    The Qualtrough plan was ingenious, and double-edged. It was designed to send Wallace on a wild goose chase to Menlove Gardens, and to also persuade Julia to admit Qualtrough when he instead came knocking at Wolverton Street.

    It all fits like a glove.
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    Rod, if it was another that Julia knew (Marsden perhaps?) then why would he need to pretend to be Qualtrough to gain entry? And how would this person, even if Julia did not know him, explain his reason for being there and think that he could get alone for enough time to get away with committing the robbery and leave undetected without struggle?

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    I don't think it was anyone Julia knew, which rules out Marsden. Whoever it was, in league with Parry, knew that there would be at least an hour before Wallace returned. Plenty of time.
    All Qualtrough had to say was "there must have been a mix up. I distinctly left the message to say I would call here tonight at 7.30 on an important matter!" Julia would be covered in confusion, and reassured that there was indeed a Mr. Qualtrough from Mossley Hill [after all that was where poor William was bound for at that very moment] would most likely admit him to await William's return.

    That was the gamble anyhow, and it worked...
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    but how could this man rob the place and get away undetected and unrecognized...or expect to without violence?

    in fact how could ANY robbery motive be plausible considering the point I just made?

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    "but how could this man rob the place and get away undetected and unrecognized...or expect to without violence?"
    Do you read the papers? It happens all the time, especially to old folks...
    Sometimes it goes tragically wrong, however.
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    Julia wasn't senile yet.... nevertheless I do think your idea is inventive and clever. I just can't see it ever working in any practice. So you would have to assume Parry was genius enough to invent all these angles but stupid enough to think it could work.

    Imagine Wallace returning home and Julia telling him what happened...surely they would be very suspicious and investigate, seeing that they were ripped off? Julia would remember the man no doubt.

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    "Julia wasn't senile yet..."
    but she was incontinent. Perhaps Qualtrough thought his opportunity to steal would arise when she went to the loo.
    The fact that coins were scattered around the hearth suggests to me that Qualtrough grabbed the money rapidly and carelessly while Julia's back was turned...
    Perhaps Julia noticed these coins when she returned downstairs, and smelt a rat.
    Perhaps she took down the mackintosh because she was about to leave the house.
    Qualtrough couldn't let her do that, of course...
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    Senior Member Mark R's Avatar
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    Re: the telephone call. As much as Beattie recognising the voice I also find it completely out of character for someone as perceived as intelligent as Wallace to be seen using a call box in Anfield. Many in the area knew him and as you know he was hardly discreet - he was 6 "2 and probably stood out like a sore thumb. Also the fact that the call was traced. I don't go for the old 'nobody knew calls could be traced in those days.' Wallace was of a scientific mind and a regular subscriber to scientific magazines. I'm pretty sure he would recognise the fact that it could be traced. I concur with you as well regarding the timing. As I say, if Alan Close's bicycle hadn't been damaged he wouldn't have called when he did. Where does that leave a 'perfectly executed plan?'
    Yes the blood...The biggest thing in Wallace's favour imho. I've also heard Wallaceites claim that 'he could have evaded spatter or it might not have been that bad.' This is nonsense of course. Nothing bleeds like a head wound and blood has been the curse of prospective killers throughout history. A pint to a pint and a half was spilled, which is an incredible amount. The old argument that 'there was none outside the parlour so he evaded it' holds no credibility either. Whoever was in that room must have been spattered.

    ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RodCrosby View Post
    It was designed to send Wallace on a wild goose chase to Menlove Gardens, and to also persuade Julia to admit Qualtrough when he instead came knocking at Wolverton Street.

    It all fits like a glove.
    But what if Wallace decided not to go up to Menlove Gardens? Or was notified beyond ALL reasonable doubt that there was no such place? Yes, I know the Gardens hadn't been a residential area for long and that is a point. Qualtrough was taking a massive risk in pinning his hopes on Wallace following it all through though...
    It is Accomplished

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    By Kev in forum Liverpool East
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