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Thread: Julia Wallace Murder Case

  1. #1471
    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Glad to see the book has provoked such differences of opinion..I thought it would! Surely none of us can accuse JOHN GANNON of not doing his research for this new book.... its full of new facts & clears up a lot of false impressions from earlier books.I'm now happy that WHW was behind the murder(But couldnt possibly have killed her himself!)I'm even more happy that RGP was Qualtrough,but was not the actual killer & that, at best, MARSDEN is a plausible possible killer...but unfortunately no more..there is no evidence against him..apart from 1)WHW naming him,2)RGP knowing & recommending him to WALLACE & 3)he was at least dishonest with the Pru's money.But there is no record that his juvenile crimes extended into later life ..as of course it did with PARRY. Strange given the huge interest in the crime at the time,that there is no movie footage of WHW either at St Georges Hal or leaving the Court Of Appeal in London....even in 1931 I think Pathe/BBC news was active.. We havnt even got a photo of MARSDEN(?)
    IAN(FJumble)

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    Member Acrosstheuniverse's Avatar
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    Yes IAN, I agree Wallace planned it and Parry made the call...that much I'm convince of. Marsden possible, maybe even probable (when you tie together Qualtrough+family connection/police) but certainly not proved. Wish we could get a picture of him. I think Wallace described him in the final Verdict.

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    Please... where is there anything resembling 'evidence', never-mind 'proof beyond all reasonable doubt' for this theory...?
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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodCrosby View Post
    Please... where is there anything resembling 'evidence', never-mind 'proof beyond all reasonable doubt' of this theory...?
    ROD,yes I agree as I said earlier there is no hard evidence against MARSDEN,but I'm sure LILY HALL clearly saw WALLACE talking to a man who fitted his description at the right place & right time..why would WALLACE deny this if it was of no consequence? Also, Mrs Parsons(P.187) saw 2 men running very fast down Hanwell St ..again right place,right time...and Mrs Jane Smith said she saw "one of the men" by the Cabbage Hall cinema...again hardly conclusive,but if they were not involved ..why did nobody come forward to explain? Thank goodness this book has got an index(MURPHY's book is infuriating because it hasnt got an index!!)
    The fact that the Central Chess Club was actually formed by WHW & CAIRD is an interesting little tit-bit,but surely the fact that he waited 40 min. by the tramstop to tackle BEATTIE is far more relevant to the case.His answer to the police of why he did this is no more than an apology..not an explanation! IAN(FJumble)

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    Senior Member Rhoobarb's Avatar
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    Not throwing any accusations of guilt of providing any evidence or proof here, but it's said that attacking the eyes suggests a relationship with the attacker.

    Given the ferocious injuries to Julia's head could this be a similar thing. Particularly given how badly injured she was, it suggests an awful lot of anger within the attacker towards the victim ergo it was personal.

    Like I say, just a thought.
    I wouldn't give Satan a snowball's chance in hell against a woman's ego, man. He'd rule the Earth for a day. A week later we'd see Satan out cuttin' the lawn.

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    Pure speculation: some spouse-killers kill 'personally' but quietly with poison or a pillow. Professional hitmen brutally pump bullets into skulls. It's not personal, just 'business'...

    So no firm conclusion can be drawn from Julia's injuries.
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    Senior Member Rhoobarb's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, not throwing Wallace's name in the hat. From all the evidence i've read I don't believe it was him that did the deed.
    I wouldn't give Satan a snowball's chance in hell against a woman's ego, man. He'd rule the Earth for a day. A week later we'd see Satan out cuttin' the lawn.

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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    The attack was described as "frenzied"..which it surely was...more like an assassination than a spare of the moment killing. Any thoughts ROD on GANNON'S reconstruction of the actual chain of events in the parlour,which I thought was an excellent reconstruction of actual killing? His version of events neatly covers all the oddities regarding the mackintosh,the partly burnt skirt & of course the the way the body was moved by the killer & then by the police..very well reasoned I thought!! The missing iron bar from the fireplace has long been assumed to be the actual weapon & had the advantage of being "in situ" so that the weapon was not carried to the murder scene..but I do wonder if WHW actually had in mind the axe for the job & when the killer didnt use it,WHW cleverly "re-discovered" it to gain favour with the police ..knowing full-well it was not in any way incriminating!! IAN(FJumble)

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    Today's Echo
    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-30427747/

    Ian, I'll have to read the bit about the (slight) moving of the body again (not that it really aids in indentifying the killer), but the "mac over the head" nonsense was firmly debunked by Home Office pathologist Dr Charles St. Hill in the 1981 radio show...

    *btw, just received my very own copy of Wyndham-Brown's 1933 book. Cost me 70, but it looks very nice...
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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    ROD..Congrats on getting hold of a copy of Wyndham-Brown..I think 70 is about right these days & its probably a good investment because its a scarce title & only likely to increase!! I sold my copy about 1990 & I've regreted it ever since!
    I agree that obviously the moving of the body doesnt help in any way with identifying the killer..but the sequence of events, properly detailed by the police, would have helped them realise exactly how & exactly where poor JULIA was killed in the parlour..the official police photographs are therefore rendered very misleading & strongly hint that the first crucial blow was NOT delivered where the final resting place suggests! Yet another example of very shoddy & unprofessional police detective work,which as we all agree runs right through the investigation. What do you make of JOSEPH CREWE'S blatent lies about how often WHW visited him in Green Lane...he had already admitted earlier that WALLACE had visited him at his home in Green Lane on a fairly regular basis & this is very near(ie adjacent) the Menlove Gardens complex. WHW told the police & just about everybody else on the murder night, that he was a stranger in the area..he was clearly anything but!! At the Penny Lane junction,the tram conductor,PHILIPS, noted that he charged off to get the tram he had obviously used previously(5A)... instead of the one "the stranger" was directed to use by the conductor(No.7)..the conductor,PHILIPS, actually shouted after WHW to tell him he was getting on the wrong tram as was independently witnessed..but he clearly knew what he was doing! IAN

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    Senior Member burkhilly's Avatar
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    The "I'm a stranger" doesn't, I agree, make sense. But let's be honest if there's a North, South and West Gardens, it would be logical to think there must be an East Gardens. I know there's no East Gardens but only because of the Wallace case. Green Lane is very nearby, but whereabouts on Green Lane did Crewe live? I really must do a tour one of these days so I can get my bearings!

    I can't remember who (sure one of you know) but a author asked a friend to drop off an "important document" using a similar scenario - the address didn't exist (can't remember if it was North, South, East of West) and the friend asked at least eight people who didn't know where the road was - none said the road didn't exist!


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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    What earthly reason could Crewe have had to 'lie'? Perhaps he merely clarified with the second statement what he really meant to say in the first.

    Philips was scarcely a reliable witness. He didn't recall what time his car had left Lodge Lane. And even if his evidence was correct, I fail to see it's of much significance. Wallace had some idea of his orientation, owing to his visits to Calderstones and Crewe.
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  13. #1483
    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    BURKHILLY It was GOODMAN who sent a friend of his round some Chelsea mews as you describe!
    ROD.. surely thats the point ....WHY did Crew lie? It can only be to protect his friend,WHW, who must have asked him to play down his original statement otherwise his "I'm a stranger" oft repeated mantra would have proved him a liar..as he clearly new the area quite well!! PHILIPS,is surely reliable on this point : that he shouted to WALLACE that he was he wa going to the wrong tram(this was witnessed) & WHW totally ignored his warning & borded the 5a tram. If you were a stranger in lets say Newcastle & asked for directions why would you risk getting lost in an unfamiliar area by taking no notice of the advice given by the person who asked for directions? He headed straight for the 5a because he knew full well where it went,dont you agree?? IAN

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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Wallace had some idea of his orientation, owing to his visits to Calderstones and Crewe.[/QUOTE]AGREED ..so why all the "I'm A Stranger" rubbish?

    ---------- Post added at 07:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 AM ----------

    [QUOTE=burkhilly;399464]. Green Lane is very nearby, but whereabouts on Green Lane did Crewe live? BURKHILLY He lived at No.34 GREEN LANE ..which, if you leave MENLOVE Gdns Nprth & cross MENLOVE Ave into Green Lane(heading towards the ALLERTON ROAD junction)..JOSEPH CREWE'S house is on the left just past half-way down.There is a map showing this in GANNON'S new book et al.ie WILKES
    I think "walking the walk" is a very good way of getting to grips with the geography of the case!!! However,if you havnt visited WOLVERTON STREET on a 20th JANUARY after 6.30pm.I strongly recommend you take the trouble... it is very evocative! IAN(FJumble)

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    Senior Member burkhilly's Avatar
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    I've never visited Wolverton Street, but pass Richmond Park regularly. I've been tempted to make a detour on many occasions - but I'd just feel odd going to a house because a murder took place years ago. Not that anyone is odd visiting the house, but this is just me!

    I am going to take a walk from Penny Lane up Menlove Avenue, and into Green Lane, just so I can get my bearings on whereabouts Crewe lived. I will however wait until the good weather arrives - a nice sunny and warm day - there should be at least one during the summer!

    I really must read JG's book again - which I will before I do my walk - I have missed lots of information, mainly due to me wanting to read it very quickly and trying to skip bits I already knew - or thought I knew.

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    Senior Member Prefrab's Avatar
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    Even if Wallace had visited Green Lane Allerton on a regular basis ,Menlove Gardens are on the other side of the dual carriage way (Menlove Avenue) slightly tucked away and there would be no reason for him to be aware of their location , and he would just assume when he got the Qualtrough call that they were off Menlove Avenue, which is a long Avenue.

    I have worked in the same location for 18 years, and apart from the roads I drive down to get to work, I would struggle to name any other adjacent roads

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    IAN: In Wyndham-Brown, Phillip's testimony (under cross-examination by Hemmerde) states:-
    'He asked me if the car went to Menlove Gardens East, and I said "No, you can get on No.5, 5A, 5W, or a No.7 car"'

    So, if anything, the number 5 was impressed upon Wallace, rather than 7. That could explain his later choice at Penny Lane, and he may not have heard Phillips calling after him in any case. I really don't think there is much mileage in looking for discrepancies in this stuff. And as for "I'm a stranger here" - it's a figure of speech, which we have all used.

    Just think about it. We all have our home locality, which we know like the back of our hand. We visit other places, but we can never know them as well as we know home. We may gain a knowledge of the main thoroughfares and landmarks, and we may well know our way to a specific address off the beaten track (Green Lane?) but if someone stopped us to ask directions to a particular obscure street, we might well say "Sorry, I'm a stranger here." I know I certainly have done exactly that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodCrosby View Post
    but if someone stopped us to ask directions to a particular obscure street, we might well say "Sorry, I'm a stranger here." I know I certainly have done exactly that...
    We also have to look at in the eyes of someone living in the 1930's, when the average person had no need to, and did not travel more than about 1.5 miles from their home for any reason ( local: shops, hospitals, cinemas, schools, pub on your street corner etc) except possibly to travel to work

  19. #1489
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    'Sorry, I'm a stranger here?!?!' Who would say that, ever? Sounds totally contrived.

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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Thanks ROD / PREFAB..I think you both make good points & I agree that WHW would perhaps not be familiar with ALL the relatively new housing developments..but I'm sure his friend Joseph Crewe must have been aware of the names of the roads so near to his house of over 3 years! As PREFAB pointed out people in 1931 didnt get around as much as we do 81 years later & they mostly walked..hence you would notice Street names MORE in those times as you walked past,than nowadays in our cars etc. CREWE that night was visiting the cinema with his wife & presumably he would have walked as it wasnt very far of course. I think CREWE was a final brick in WHW's alibi as he expected to be drinking tea in Green Lane at the time of the killing...except he had gone to the cinema!! CREWE said in his first statement that Wallace visited his Green Lane home regularly once a week on business & as a friend..plus of course the other 5 visits for violin lessons. Why later in court,when questioned by HEMMERDE would he be so vague & say ONLY 5 times in total for the lessons!! That is so obviously a blatent lie & I wonder WHY..the only explanation is to try & not incriminate his friend WALLACE..who claimed repeatedly "to be a stranger here" If I had visited an area 15 plus times,I could hardly claim to be a stranger.WHW had travelled that tram journey MANY times previously......thats why he made a beeline for the 5a despite PHILIPS shouting at him...IAN(FJumble)

    ---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Acrosstheuniverse View Post
    'Sorry, I'm a stranger here?!?!' Who would say that, ever? Sounds totally contrived.
    Especially if you'd been there at least 15 times before!!!
    Heres one for you JOHN.....who unlocked the OUTSIDE door/Gate to the back entry? WHW says when he left Wolverton St.to go to MENLOVE GARDENS,JULIA walked with him to the gate as she habitually did..then she bolted the door behind him! When he returns at 9.45 & cant gain entry through the front door,he goes round the back to what he presumably expected to be a BOLTED back gate? Why when the JOHNSTONS appeared did he say nothing about the BOLTED back door now being UNBOLTED.....who unbolted it? it couldnt have been WHW..if it was JULIA it would have to have been to admit the man who killed her.If the killer left it open as he fled..how did he gain entry to No.29 in the first place....no doors or windows were forced & surely the killer didnt just knock on the front door??? It seems to me that WALLACE didnt mention this oddity because he KNEW it had been left UNBOLTED.Hmmmmmm IAN(FJUmble)

    ---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

    Sorry for slip ..of course I meant 8.45 pm !!

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    Yes, IAN

    Wallace saying 'now it opens!', but then never making a big deal about the unlocked door again was a major slip up in my opinion. Pretty good indicator of pre knowledge/planning.

    I would never say I was a stranger to an area I had been many times. Goodman tested it out on a friend who went on a Wallace like journey, but there were two MAJOR differences. One, Wallace had been to the area many times previously and was at least familiar with the surroundings. Not a random goose chase. In addition, he had been told several times the road DID NOT EXIST AT ALL. Some argue, presuming Wallace's innocence, that he could have thought a mistake had been made with the address and not realize he had been had. Fine, but then why continue on aimlessly for such a long period of time after being repeatedly told there was no such road? He would have been better off going to an actual address in my opinion, and establishing his alibi that way....I do wonder if Murphy's idea of a mistaken address may have been right. Maybe Parry screwed it up and was supposed to say West.

    IAN, I think we are pretty much in agreement on most factors. I wish we could buttress Gannon's already magnificent work by dredging up some info on Marsden. Would LOVE to find out new info about him.

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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Thanks JOHN..I think his stubborn refusal to accept MENLOVE GARDENS EAST just didnt exist & to keep asking was a major reason why the police first suspected him & made him the prime suspect..you could say the ONLY suspect, as they dont seem to have made much effort with PARRY or any one else for that matter! Presumably JOHN GANNON couldnt get any more on Marsden than he put in the book. WHW saying "now it opens" was obviously the door to the back kitchen,which he couldnt unlock with his key...that squares as the police locksmith found the locks in the house were actually faulty.But its odd that the back gate, which he said JULIA bolted, was open(ie UNBOLTED) and yet he didnt comment that it should be bolted!!
    I completely agree with your point about GOODMAN'S friend in Chelsea..again I wonder if GOODMAN was aware that WALLACE regularly visited 34,Green Lane..he may have just gone with the trial version of just 5 times!! IAN(FJumble)

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    Wallace was in a state of agitation. You can't condemn a man simply because he didn't use a form of words you think he ought to have used. Wallace did say "she won't be out: she has such a bad cold" and that could have been an allusion to the unlocked gate...
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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    Thanks ROD..I take your point about his obvious agitation(same applies whether he was guilty or innocent!)but so far as I can see he never mentioned to anybody..including the police...that the back gate SHOULD have been bolted shut when he went round the back... but it wasnt. How or who do you think was responsible for unlocking the gate(I'm saying "gate" to avoid confusion with the back-kitchen door)...it must have been JULIA letting her eventual killer into the house surely? She clearly recognised this person to not only admit whoever it was..... I now think MARSDEN is a good candidate...but to go through to the front parlour with him & light the gasfire on a cold January evening. As I cant imagine the killer going out through the front door(or indeed entrancing this way either!)...he must have gone out the same way he got in... through the back door gate, which of course bolted on the inside,so he had to leave it UNBOLTED as he fled into the back entry.. It seems likely that he then turned right & spoke briefly to WHW when he emerged in Richmond Park.. ..as witnessed by Lily Hall ..IAN

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    Its worth checking out the reviews of the excellent new JOHN GANNON book on AMAZON...mostly very complimentary..with one notable exception!! BOOKS TO YOU UK now offering the book at 7 + P/P. Has anybody's opinion on the case been changed by the new book? Does anybody still believe WALLACE did the actual killing? Personally,I fully accept that the MARSDEN theory is totally unproved..but the logic of 2 young disgraced ex. Pru.men being blackmailed into the assassination fits with me..albeit that the sexual angle is very contoversial! IAN

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    Senior Member RodCrosby's Avatar
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    'the logic of 2 young disgraced ex. Pru.men being blackmailed into the assassination fits with me..albeit that the sexual angle is very contoversial!'

    It's total cobblers, Ian. Sorry, but there it is...
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    A drop of slow poisoning , a trip down the stairs, a wiff of town gas, a pillow over the face, Wallace could have found easier ways , after all a woman of her age even the flu could have been fatal ( or arranged to be ) and he would not have too or allegedly involve 2 others.

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    Senior Member burkhilly's Avatar
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    I just read the reviews on Amazon just out of interest, and noted that one reviewer believes the book gives the definitive answer to who killed Julia Wallace. Well it doesn't. There's no way on earth that JG's conclusion is right. Julia was paying two young men for sex, her husband found out and then blackmailed the two men into becoming involved in a big plot to murder her?

    The question remains "Who Killed Julia Wallace" - because as far as I'm concerned the conclusion given in the book is disrespectful to an innocent old lady, who died horribly.

    Prefab is right there were other far easier ways of getting rid of Julia than rather battering her to death, particularly as she did suffer frequent ill health.

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    Senior Member IAN DAVID FRYER's Avatar
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    I agree that the murderer is still far from resolved BURKHILLY!! But,there is a danger of just concentrating on JOHN GANNON'S hypothesis about PARRY/MARSDEN & JULIA paying them & ignoring the outstanding research in the other 99% of the book..at least it tries to reach a conclusion.You surely dont find the whole book "total cobblers" do you ROD,I assume you just mean his conclusion? For me MURPHY falls down after a very promising start,by trying to make the facts fit WHW just like Hubert Moore etc But does everyone agree it couldnt have been WHW surely(?) PARRY must be Qualtrough(?) and unpleasant as it is, the killer actually CHOSE to despatch poor JULIA by smashing her skull in..not by any of the other perhaps "easier" methods PREFAB listed! IAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAN DAVID FRYER View Post
    the killer actually CHOSE to despatch poor JULIA by smashing her skull in
    Which showed unbelievable savagery or possible hatred...quite rightly indicating to the police someone who knew her, particularly focusing on her husband. If the crime happened today we would all first think "The husbands behind it" after all even the most "perfect marriages in public" behave differently behind closed doors.

    Having now read JG's book I feel like all previous books it just adds another possible scenario, but not in my opinion the definitive solution
    I look forward to the next writers take on the subject

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