King John's Hunting Lodge

[Kev]

The oldest part of the house lies between here....



and here...



..u can see that thick arch from pic 1 in the back ground.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Kev

Further to the fireback, I have found a similar cast iron fireback described on the web:

An English cast iron fireback, probably 19th Century, cast after a 16th Century pattern from a Sussex foundry commemorating the Spanish Armada, the arched rectangular backplate cast in relief with a pair of anchors and flanked by fruiting vines, and dated "1588" with the letters "I.F.C"

86.5cm (34") High, 103cm (40.5") Wide

See: Rupert Gentle and Rachael Feild "Domestic Metalwork 1640-1820", Elek Books 1975, p.332 for an illustration, the comment reading: "The initials "I.F.C stand for "In Factiem Concepta" meaning "In Commemoration of the Dead". Several of these firebacks are known, each with additional decoration. All were cast at the same foundry, probably in the Sussex Weald".

The question is whether the fireback at King John's Higher Lodge is an original from the sixteenth century or one of the nineteenth century replicas.

Chris

[Kev]

^^Cheers Chris^^

[Walden]

An English cast iron fireback, probably 19th Century, cast after a 16th Century pattern from a Sussex foundry commemorating the Spanish Armada, the arched rectangular backplate cast in relief with a pair of anchors and flanked by fruiting vines, and dated "1588" with the letters "I.F.C"

Chris are you sure that's not LFC afterall its a little faded

[ChrisGeorge]

Chris are you sure that's not LFC afterall its a little faded

Yes and I think it might be Rafael Benitez's coat of arms as well.

[ChrisGeorge]

. . . The house seemed huge and I couldn't get over how significant this building is to the city of Liverpool, yet it isn't listed. . .

Hi Kev

Incredible indeed that the building is not listed, as you say, and we do owe a debt of gratitude to Paula and her husband for saving the lodge from the developers and lovingly restoring it.

I wanted though to address the subject of that old newscutting. What is the proof that King John ever did personally hunt in the park?

I looked at the large size of the pic of the newscutting on Flikr and I don't see that the article actually backs up what is stated in the headline. I also wonder about the statement that "after first being enclosed by palings [the park] was walled in" -- wouldn't there be a trace of such medieval walls?

The charter or letters patent of 1207 made Liverpool a privileged port, giving it exemption from certain dues and taxes, and thus was designed to encourage trading. But it was issued by King John in Winchester not in Liverpool. We do know though that King John had become lord of the country between the Rivers Mersey and Ribble and made various grants to these lands. It is also known that the reason for the letters patent was that King John needed a port of embarkation for men and provisions to Ireland. The small town or hamlet Liverpool with its sheltered "Pool" on the eastern bank of the Mersey was ideal for such needs. Liverpool would also provide an alternative to using the port of Chester on the Dee, which was controlled by its powerful and independent Earl -- however, the Dee continued to be used to ferry Royal armies to Ireland as late as the reign of William III (1688-1702) after which the Dee became too silted for large vessels and Liverpool became the preferred port.

Now King John was in the habit of traveling around the country as I believe the king depended on his barons to put him up wherever he went, the monarchy of the day being short of money. There is also the famous incident of King John, just before his death, losing the royal treasure in the Wash, the distinctively shaped square-mouthed estuary on the northwest margin of East Anglia on the east coast of England, "where Norfolk meets Lincolnshire", as recounted on Wikipedia:

The most famous incident associated with the Wash is the loss of King John's royal treasure. According to contemporary reports, John travelled from Spalding in Lincolnshire to Bishop's Lynn, in Norfolk, was taken ill and decided to return. While he took the longer route by way of Wisbech, he sent his baggage train, including his crown jewels, along the causeway and ford across the mouth of the Wellstream. This route was usable only on the lower part of the tide. The horse-drawn wagons moved too slowly for the incoming tide, and many were lost.

The present-day location of the accident is normally supposed to be somewhere near Sutton Bridge, on the River Nene. The name of the river changed as a result of redirection of the Great Ouse during the seventeenth century, and Bishop's Lynn became King's Lynn as a result of Henry VIII's rearrangement of the English Church.

Astronomical study, however, permits a reconstruction of the tide tables of the relevant day and it seems most likely, given travel in the usual daylight hours, that the loss was incurred in crossing the Welland estuary at Fosdyke.

There is also a suspicion that John left his jewels in Lynn as security for a loan and arranged their "loss". This looks likely to be apocryphal. However that may be, he passed the following night, that of 12 to 13 October 1216, at Swineshead Abbey, moved on to Newark-on-Trent and died of his illness on 19 October.

So could King John in his younger days have visited Liverpool and hunted in the royal park of Toxteth?

Chris

[PhilipG]

I've heard reference to a wall around Toxteth Park.
It might have been in Griffith's History of Toxteth Park.

Attached is my piece about Dingle/Toxteth Park taken from "A Tram Ride to Dingle".

[ChrisGeorge]

I've heard reference to a wall around Toxteth Park.
It might have been in Griffith's History of Toxteth Park.

Attached is my piece about Dingle/Toxteth Park taken from "A Tram Ride to Dingle".

Thanks for that, Philip. And here's a website on one of the last remaining royal hunting parks, Richmond Park:

http://www.gardenvisit.com/landscape...hmond-park.htm

Chris

[Lady]

Thankyou Kev, Paula and everyone else for this thread, i have so enjoyed the contents

And the pictures were fantastic

What i would'nt give for a good root around this place.........

Jacky x

[taffy]

I've heard reference to a wall around Toxteth Park.
It might have been in Griffith's History of Toxteth Park.

Attached is my piece about Dingle/Toxteth Park taken from "A Tram Ride to Dingle".

I believe one set of gates in this wall were located near St James Church, Toxteth Park. This section of the wall along Parliament St was the last bit still standing before development brushed it aside.