I hope it will be!Originally Posted by researchwriter
I hope it will be!
Well, a bit of a damp squib I'm afraid.
I consulted the ever powerful oracle of Liverpool knowledge.....Mr Richard Whittington Egan.
He has never heard of the story!!!
He has never heard of McKenzie either.
He consulted Picton's Memorials of Liverpool too, and there's nothing in there.
My thoughts are that, if RWE has never heard of it, it must be a fairly recent story. Which makes me think it's a hoax.
Hi DaisyChains
The story doesn't have to be a hoax if it is a bit of folk lore or a popular myth that somehow arose. Though I agree that the fact that the erudite Mr Whittington Egan had not heard of the story does tell us something.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
Editor, Ripperologist
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
Chris on Flickr and on MySpace
Was it (Is it?) a legal requirement to bury a body under six feet of earth?
The more I think about it, the more I think it was.
If only for reasons of health.
Hi Philip
There's some interesting discussion of this tradition here at straightdope.com:
Why is "six feet under" the standard depth for burial?
Chris
Christopher T. George
Editor, Ripperologist
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
Chris on Flickr and on MySpace
Hi Chris
I agree, it doesn't mean it's definitely not a hoax just because RWE hasn't heard of it, but it seems odd that a man who has such a vast knowledge of the oddities of our city hasn't heard of the myth.
Sunday
That gives an American perspective. In the UK you can bury people anywhere you want, as long as you own the land, and you don't bury more than two people. The requirements are that it is not waterlogged ground, it is not near a spring or well, or near a watercourse. You may not erect a headstone without planning permission. It has been suggested that a burial in the garden may lower the value of the property.
I investigated all this when my wife died, as I wanted to bury her in our orchard. We didn't even use a funeral director, the gravedigger collected her body in the back of his van, and his lads helped lower her in.
Unfortunately since then human remains have been deemed to be hazardous waste, and new regulations apply.
Lovely shot. It looks like an old photograph rather than a fresh digital image.Sunday
I was watching 'Liverpool Unravelled' yesterday. (The Frank Carlyle DVD)
He talks about McKenzie, and also shows an old photo of a man I assume they are saying is McKenzie.
Does anyone know if there are any pics of him?
I am going to try and get in touch with Frank Carlyle to ask, if anyone knows where I can contact him, much appreciated.
Didn't he die in 1851?
That's rather early for photography.
Indeed - the supposed photo of Joseph Williamson was also ruled out seeing as Williamson died in 1840 and 'portrate' pictures only came about in the 1860's (or you would have to sit perfectly still for 4 hours!)
The best thing to do is leave a message for him at Radio Merseyside.
He's on the radio once a week - usually on Tuesday mornings I think. he takes phone calls.
I will try and get Miss Z to answer your questions as she knows him very well.
Remind me in the shoutbox
Does anyone know if there is an inscription on the tomb?
I am frustrated by the lack of information so I have decided to do my own research. This took me about an hour to pull together and a bit longer to sort out into some sort of shape. Luckily, because I am a student I have access to numerous archives and online newspapers. These are my findings.
We could perhaps begin by verifing these questions:
- was his name was William McKenzie (and not James as some websites have it)
- was his date of death was 1851 or 1868
- was his is buried alone above the ground ?
- was there a hint of gambling or diabolical shenannigans?
- is Tom Slemens widely published story accurate, or at least fitting to to the mans character?
With this information we could begin scouring the record office, Liverpool Mercury etc... to find any obituries to him. Surely a man able to erect such an ornate tomb would merit a mention in the paper of the day.
Using the wonders of the internet and the access to archives I have I discovered:
That in Pictons 'MEMORIALS OF LIVERPOOL, it mentions that he was an "eminent railway contractor" (p. 279)
Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton.
If we look up William McKenzie on Google we are given a Wikipedia article about the railway contractor with link to ODNB. Wikipedia says that the railway contractor was 'William MacKenzie' famous in Paris and London.
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."
The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.
"Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
A deeper search of archived newspapers for 'Edward MacKenzie' in the year '1868' reveals that listed in the, Glasgow Herald (Glasgow, Scotland), Monday, February 3, 1868; Issue 8762:
MUNIFICENT GIFT to a SCOTCH CHURCH IN LIVERPOOL
From the Liverpool Mercury: -
It details that the Scotch Church in Rodney Street was cleared of a huge debt that had been hanging over it by the munificence of... Edward Mackenzie. He apparently gifted £1100 to the church after parishoners could only gather £600 in subscriptions. It also mentions that it was probably because of his brother being buried there.
The same article appears in ECCLESIASTICAL, The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Monday, February 10, 1868; Issue 34064. Both articles are apparently copied from the Liverpool Mercury article of the same type.
So we may need to re-name this thread, the spelling in original records seems to be William Mackenzie. With the 'Mac' prefix and a small 'k'. We may also have to double check with Tom Slemens version to see if his dates match.
The logical conclusion of this is that when William Makenzie died in 1851 his body was interred in the ground. i.e. he was buried in the graveyard of St Andrews Chuch. Then in 1868 his brother, whilst donating a substantial sum to the recovery of the Church, built the tomb on top of the grave as a memorial to his brother and his sister-in-law who died a year previously. Probably without disturbing his remains at all.
It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!
Intrestingly, I cannot actually find an obituary for William Mackenzie himself.
EDIT: Actually a little bit more searching uncovers a mention in;
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, October 31, 1851; Issue 2341:
Oct 29 at his house 74 Grove-Street, ages 57, Wm. Mackenzie. Esq. civil engineer and contractor for public works.
Not a very grand obituary, but still a noteworthy one.
Also: I believe the story given here is Tom Slemens http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com...howtopic=12155
I searched "The Diary of William Mackenzie, the First International Railway Contractor", partly available free from Google books for the names mentioned in this story 'MacGowan' and 'Madison'. I could not find any mention of these names. If these guys were such close friends of William Mackenzie, then why do their names not appear in his diary?
It seems that William Mackenzie was never called James, never spelt his name McKenzie, never got buried above the ground and didn't even have the pyramid tomb built himself.
Now can somone e-mail this to Tom Slemen and all other bollock-writers of Liverpools history?
Last edited by fortinian; 04-03-2008 at 02:49 AM.
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