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Thread: Mackenzie's Tomb - Rodney Street

  1. #151
    PhilipG
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    You answer all your own questions.
    You know the date of death and where he is buried and the date of the tomb.
    The Record Office have newspapers, so you can look for an obituary.
    You know enough to find the burial record, and you could go through the GRO Index to get the reference number for his death certificate.
    He died after March 1851 so you'll find him in the 1851 Census.

  2. #152
    Senior Member fortinian's Avatar
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    I know I answered my own questions... that was kind of the point of the post...

    Sorry I didn't make it clearer. I just wanted to show how I took the basic questions, answered them and drew a likely conclusion from the evidence that I found through searching old newspapers online.

    They were rhetorical questions, sort of like at the beginning of an essay.

  3. #153
    Senior Member shytalk's Avatar
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    fortinian. You must remember that Tom Slemen never lets the truth hinder a money spinning yarn.
    You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
    Winston Churchill

  4. #154
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Didn't he die in 1851?
    That's rather early for photography.
    There were studio portraits done in the 1840's. Edgar Allan Poe died in October 1849 and there are a number of photographs of him. See

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

    Chris
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  5. #155
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
    From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."

    The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.

    "Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
    . . . It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
    Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!
    "In 1868 he [Mackenzie's brother, Edward] erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried."

    There's a difference between a monument and a tomb. From the above it sounds as if the pyramid could be just a memorial to honor Mackenzie's memory not a tomb. Thus, he may not be buried in it, let alone his corpse sitting inside holding a deck of cards.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  6. #156

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    I think perhaps sometimes people like to spice things up too much, and before long a rumour or folklore becomes widespread 'fact'. It's like all these 9/11 and Diana conspiracies - maybe people are so desparate to read more exciting 'truths' into things to make up for a lack of excitement in their own lives.

    Whatever, I find the research above quite fascinating, and to me it sounds the most plausible and logical conclusion: Mackenzie died in 1851, was buried, and then the 'tomb' built as a memorial.


  7. #157
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Well done then Fortinian.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  8. #158
    DaisyChains
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    Does anyone know if there is an inscription on the tomb?


    I am frustrated by the lack of information so I have decided to do my own research. This took me about an hour to pull together and a bit longer to sort out into some sort of shape. Luckily, because I am a student I have access to numerous archives and online newspapers. These are my findings.

    We could perhaps begin by verifing these questions:

    - was his name was William McKenzie (and not James as some websites have it)
    - was his date of death was 1851 or 1868
    - was his is buried alone above the ground ?
    - was there a hint of gambling or diabolical shenannigans?
    - is Tom Slemens widely published story accurate, or at least fitting to to the mans character?

    With this information we could begin scouring the record office, Liverpool Mercury etc... to find any obituries to him. Surely a man able to erect such an ornate tomb would merit a mention in the paper of the day.

    Using the wonders of the internet and the access to archives I have I discovered:

    That in Pictons 'MEMORIALS OF LIVERPOOL, it mentions that he was an "eminent railway contractor" (p. 279)

    Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton.

    If we look up William McKenzie on Google we are given a Wikipedia article about the railway contractor with link to ODNB. Wikipedia says that the railway contractor was 'William MacKenzie' famous in Paris and London.

    Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
    From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."

    The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.

    "Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.


    A deeper search of archived newspapers for 'Edward MacKenzie' in the year '1868' reveals that listed in the, Glasgow Herald (Glasgow, Scotland), Monday, February 3, 1868; Issue 8762:

    MUNIFICENT GIFT to a SCOTCH CHURCH IN LIVERPOOL
    From the Liverpool Mercury: -

    It details that the Scotch Church in Rodney Street was cleared of a huge debt that had been hanging over it by the munificence of... Edward Mackenzie. He apparently gifted £1100 to the church after parishoners could only gather £600 in subscriptions. It also mentions that it was probably because of his brother being buried there.

    The same article appears in ECCLESIASTICAL, The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Monday, February 10, 1868; Issue 34064. Both articles are apparently copied from the Liverpool Mercury article of the same type.


    So we may need to re-name this thread, the spelling in original records seems to be William Mackenzie. With the 'Mac' prefix and a small 'k'. We may also have to double check with Tom Slemens version to see if his dates match.

    The logical conclusion of this is that when William Makenzie died in 1851 his body was interred in the ground. i.e. he was buried in the graveyard of St Andrews Chuch. Then in 1868 his brother, whilst donating a substantial sum to the recovery of the Church, built the tomb on top of the grave as a memorial to his brother and his sister-in-law who died a year previously. Probably without disturbing his remains at all.

    It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
    Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

    Intrestingly, I cannot actually find an obituary for William Mackenzie himself.

    EDIT: Actually a little bit more searching uncovers a mention in;
    Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
    Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, October 31, 1851; Issue 2341:

    Oct 29 at his house 74 Grove-Street, ages 57, Wm. Mackenzie. Esq. civil engineer and contractor for public works.

    Not a very grand obituary, but still a noteworthy one.

    Also: I believe the story given here is Tom Slemens http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com...howtopic=12155

    I searched "The Diary of William Mackenzie, the First International Railway Contractor", partly available free from Google books for the names mentioned in this story 'MacGowan' and 'Madison'. I could not find any mention of these names. If these guys were such close friends of William Mackenzie, then why do their names not appear in his diary?

    It seems that William Mackenzie was never called James, never spelt his name McKenzie, never got buried above the ground and didn't even have the pyramid tomb built himself.

    Now can somone e-mail this to Tom Slemen and all other bollock-writers of Liverpools history?
    This is absolutely fascinating!
    Thanks so much, this is something I have been meaning to do for so long.

  9. #159

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    Kudos to Fortinian. Found stuff in a few hours which others hadn't in twenty years...

  10. #160
    Senior Member fortinian's Avatar
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    The stuff I found wasn't particularly 'hidden' or 'lost'. So much stuff is online these days that it's quite easy to do specific searches across vast spectrums of documents from all over the country - an idea that probably seemed fantastical twenty years ago.

    I've noticed that many Histories of Liverpool seem to be built on... Histories of Liverpool, i.e. taking the words of previous writes as 'fact', without any actual original research.

    It is for reasons such as this that I give local 'historians' (or people who claim to be) a bit of a wide berth. Anyone can pick up William Moss, James Stonehouse, Richard Wittington-Egan, Derek Whale, Mike Royden et al and quote it verbitam - doesn't make you a historian.

  11. #161

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    I totally agree. Also, some people will believe what they want to believe, and discard things that go against it. There's a name for doing that, and I can't remember what it is.

    Sure, it'd be great if the mummy/tomb story was true, but I'd rather have fact over folklore.

    Thanks again for sharing your finds.

  12. #162
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    The stuff I found wasn't particularly 'hidden' or 'lost'. So much stuff is online these days that it's quite easy to do specific searches across vast spectrums of documents from all over the country - an idea that probably seemed fantastical twenty years ago.

    I've noticed that many Histories of Liverpool seem to be built on... Histories of Liverpool, i.e. taking the words of previous writes as 'fact', without any actual original research.

    It is for reasons such as this that I give local 'historians' (or people who claim to be) a bit of a wide berth. Anyone can pick up William Moss, James Stonehouse, Richard Wittington-Egan, Derek Whale, Mike Royden et al and quote it verbitam - doesn't make you a historian.

    Most stuff on-line isn't to be relied upon.
    Who and where are the sources?
    Wikipedia (good name, because it is Wicked) is a compilation of anonymous entries which anybody can alter.
    It's frightening how it's becoming the first source for most people.

    Which Local Historians do you give a wide berth to?
    At least you know who to blame if a particular book has a named author.
    None of us are perfect.

    I like to find original sources, and will never repeat what somebody else has said without checking it for myself.

  13. #163
    Senior Member fortinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Most stuff on-line isn't to be relied upon.
    Who and where are the sources?
    Wikipedia (good name, because it is Wicked) is a compilation of anonymous entries which anybody can alter.
    It's frightening how it's becoming the first source for most people.

    Which Local Historians do you give a wide berth to?
    At least you know who to blame if a particular book has a named author.
    None of us are perfect.

    I like to find original sources, and will never repeat what somebody else has said without checking it for myself.
    The sources I used were the:

    Oxford Dictionary of National Biography - a subscription only service that can be accesed using a Liverpool City Library Card. It contains the Biographys of Britains greatest men and women, written by experts in their field - most who are respected academics.

    19th Century British Library Newspapers - again a subscription only service. It contains scanned pdf's of many newspapers from around Britain. I.e. electronic facsimiles of the actual newspapers themselves. Because they are in pdf format I can conduct word searches which look for the shape of the letters that appear in the search. For example I searched 'William McKenzie, 1851' and found nothing. I then searched 'William Mackenzie, 1851' and found the newspapers that mentioned him. The software is so sensitive that even the slightly different shape of McKenzie and Mackenzie can be detected.

    If you want to verfiy what I said at the original sources then feel free to check:

    http://www.oxforddnb.com/
    http://gale.cengage.com/

    If you have access then feel free to check my findings.

    I don't understand why you are so defensive, there are many good historians but there is also a significant number who earn their crust from re-hashing the work of others and undertaking little historial research themselves. If I have offended you, I apologise.
    Last edited by fortinian; 04-03-2008 at 04:42 PM.

  14. #164
    PhilipG
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    I don't understand why you think I'm defensive.

    I don't want to argue with you.
    I've been reading microfilms all afternoon.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 04-07-2008 at 10:40 PM.

  15. #165
    Senior Member johnreppion's Avatar
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    You've done a cracking job on that one Fortinian. I wish I'd managed to come up with some of that info when I wrote my piece on Mckenzie's tomb for my book. Don't worry though, I didn't say it actually was haunted. I hope I will not be one of the local historians who you give a wide berth to as I've done my best to include all my refs. Mind you, sounds like you should have a crack at article or book writing yourself.

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