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Thread: Liverpool Windmills

  1. #31
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Thanks everyone, especially Chris for the dates.
    I was 99% sure I'd seen it marked on a 1966 OS map.
    Now I'm 100% sure.
    Hi Philip


    ADVERTISING




    Glad to help re the date in the Sixties through which Scott's Mill was still extant. I also remember the tower of Leicesterís Mill on Scotland Road / Bevington Bush which as per the list above was demolished in the Sixties also. It's sad to see these old remainders of the past city swept away which goes to show we have to cherish what is left.

    Chris
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  2. #32
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    There was another building of interest on the Scotts Mill site...the very old cottage. Some people say it was demolished in the 1960s, but I have a feeling it was still there until at least 1974.
    The big brown-brick part of the mill is crowned with a date of 1883. It is almost surrounded by newer silos. I haven't counted how many floors it has, but it's pretty high for a brick structure.
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  3. #33
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    There was another building of interest on the Scotts Mill site...the very old cottage. Some people say it was demolished in the 1960s, but I have a feeling it was still there until at least 1974.
    The big brown-brick part of the mill is crowned with a date of 1883. It is almost surrounded by newer silos. I haven't counted how many floors it has, but it's pretty high for a brick structure.
    Do you mean Grove Cottage?
    http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverp...%20cottage.htm
    Or was there one within the site itself?
    I knew Mrs Dean whose husband was the caretaker at Spillers (or foreman, or something) and she let me copy a pic of their house which was inside the site, but it was only late Victorian.

    I wrote quite a large piece on the mill site for Paul at toxteth.net, but unfortunately he hasn't had time to do much with his site since last July.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 05-01-2007 at 10:11 AM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    That's it Grove cottage...but reading the text, someone says 1966, someone says earlier, and I think 1970s. I'd like to know for sure...I'm going from memory, not from any maps or anything.
    Anyway I heard a Scotts mill story somewhere that Judas Burning took off when the foreman got some workers the sack, so they burned an effigy of him...just another rumour going around.
    Last edited by marky; 05-01-2007 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #35
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    That's it Grove cottage...but reading the text, someone says 1966, someone says earlier, and I think 1970s. I'd like to know for sure...I'm going from memory, not from any maps or anything.
    Anyway I heard a Scotts mill story somewhere that Judas Burning took off when the foreman got some workers the sack, so they burned an effigy of him...just another rumour going around.
    Marky, when it was standing, Grove Cottage was just outside the site of the mill, but now that's it's gone the site's expanded and it's just inside.
    I'll check, but I'm reasonably sure that the 1966 OS map shows the mill as standing, but Grove Cottage as already gone.
    I'll have to go to the library, because I've only got the 1953 OS at home.
    It was the centenary booklet for St Cleopas Church (1966) that mentioned Grove Cottage as being "recently demolished".

    Incidently, one thing that annoys me about toxteth.net is that some of the articles have contributions from a number of people and they are mixed up together and the reader doesn't know who contributed what.
    I like to make sure of my facts and don't like my name associated with mistakes.
    Rant over.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 05-01-2007 at 10:57 AM.

  6. #36
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    I thought the building I was thinking of was visible in Grain Street, near Mill Street end. I accept you are correct...I must admit I didn't pay too much attention to old buildings or their precise locations, when I was younger. I think I'll have to invest in some maps.
    I passed the area in the 1970s when there was some work going on (between Harlow Street and Grain Street). I used to have to walk in the road to get past the work that was going on. I must be confusing the two.

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    Hi Philip and Marky

    Philip, I have dug out the black and white slides I took of Scott's Mill and I see the year was 1967 so the old tower mill was in existence that year. The photos of the tower mill are unfortunately on the dark side. I also took a couple of photographs of old millstones that were on the premises. Is Scott's Mill still there? If so, I assume the millstones are still there as well. Another thing is that one of the photos I took was of one of the line illustrations in Griffiths' History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxteth which shows Scott's Mill in 1845. I assume the building shown to the right of the tower mill is Grove Cottage.

    Chris
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Philip and Marky

    Philip, I have dug out the black and white slides I took of Scott's Mill and I see the year was 1967 so the old tower mill was in existence that year. The photos of the tower mill are unfortunately on the dark side. I also took a couple of photographs of old millstones that were on the premises. Is Scott's Mill still there? If so, I assume the millstones are still there as well. Another thing is that one of the photos I took was of one of the line illustrations in Griffiths' History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxteth which shows Scott's Mill in 1845. I assume the building shown to the right of the tower mill is Grove Cottage.

    Chris
    I believe the millstones went into the Large Objects Store at Liverpool Museum about 1985.

  9. #39
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Default Another Wavertree Mill

    Quote Originally Posted by ghughesarch View Post
    The illustrations in Kev's post are (L-R, top to bottom):
    Wavertree 1909;
    Springfield Mill, Walton Road 1919 (built about 1800, demolished in the 1920s or 30s);
    Limekiln Lane (i.e. Lime Street Station site) 1771;
    Springfield Mill again;
    Wavertree c1895;
    There was also a Mill in Wellington Rd, Wavertree. It was on the site of Bisley St and Wimbledon Street close to the railway line

  10. #40
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    Here's the mill from 2004...I bet it's had some major additions over the years.
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  11. #41
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    I thought the building I was thinking of was visible in Grain Street, near Mill Street end. I accept you are correct...I must admit I didn't pay too much attention to old buildings or their precise locations, when I was younger. I think I'll have to invest in some maps.
    I passed the area in the 1970s when there was some work going on (between Harlow Street and Grain Street). I used to have to walk in the road to get past the work that was going on. I must be confusing the two.
    Marky, there's probably nothing wrong with your memory, because it sounds like perhaps that was when the Mission Hall was demolished.
    It was on the corner of Mill Street and Grain Street (next to Grove Cottage), and can be seen on the B&W photo at the top of the Grove Cottage article.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 05-01-2007 at 09:28 PM.

  12. #42
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    Springfield Mill, Walton Road in 1919 and the same scene in the 1980s from the book then and now and an 07 view.






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  13. #43
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    This is the now view.
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  14. #44
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    Burrough's Gardens Mill 1869 and an 07 view, I know what was much nicer.

    For a view of the opposite corner, see message 80 in the flats and maisonettes topic in the housing thread.
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  15. #45
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    Scotland Road mill in 1947 and a now view. This is the stretch from Silvester street to Woodstock street and where the Honky Tonk aka Dolly Hickies stood for many years. The 1st pic is from the LRO.
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  16. #46
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Scotland Road mill in 1947 and a now view. This is the stretch from Silvester street to Woodstock street and where the Honky Tonk aka Dolly Hickies stood for many years. The 1st pic is from the LRO.
    Thanks, Ged. I remember that mill from riding up Scotland Road on the L5 Ribble bus up to my auntie's in Thornton. That would have been circa 1954-1967, about which time I believe the mill was demolished.

    Chris
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  17. #47
    PhilipG
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    Default Scott's Mill, Toxteth Park.

    I sent this to toxteth.net just a year ago, but it was never used, so because it's all ready to read, I'll put it here.


    SOUTH END AND HIGH PARK FLOUR MILLS.

    The following is taken from a brief history of the Wilson's Mill in Mill Street.
    This is the mill that is still trading as ADM Milling.
    (Is it a contender for the longest established business in Toxteth?).
    This history was published in 1911 when the proprietors were W. O. & J. Wilson, Ltd.
    I will copy the first part as it it stands, because the details haven't been checked.

    Three windmills are known to have been in this neighbourhood.
    1. Scott's Mill, which is the one with which this piece is concerned, although it's interesting that the author of this piece avoids mentioning any of the previous owners' names.
    2. There was a windmill at the junction at Hill Street and Mill Street, which was the one that gave its name to Mill Street.
    3. The Park Road Windmill which stood on the site of Pickwick Street.
    There was also another windmill just outside the Toxteth boundary, on the mount on which the Anglican Cathedral was built.
    And, for the record, a cluster of mills in Lime Street, with more being scattered across Liverpool.

    The reference below to a mill in Rigby Street is a mystery - as far as I know there never was such a street in Toxteth - perhaps it was in Stockport.

    Quote:
    "SOUTH END AND HIGH PARK FLOUR MILLS.

    "ADVENT OF THE NEW SYSTEM.

    "In giving a brief account of the rise and progress of the South End and High Park Mills, owned and worked by the firm of Messrs. W O & J Wilson Ltd., it may be of interest to the reader to have some particulars of the historic site on which the imposing mills and grain warehouses, reproduced in our sketch, now stand.

    The Royal Park of Toxteth, formerly one of the hunting parks of King John, has been for some centuries associated with the milling industry.

    In the years 1590-91, during the mayoralty of John Byrde, it was notified that the Royal Park of Toxteth was to be disparked, and "That about 100 acres should be reserved for the inhabitants of Liverpool, or such of them as would endeavour themselves to take the same, or such portion as they could conveniently deal with." In the year 1604 we find that portions of the land were divided, dwelling-houses built, and a considerable area converted into arable and pasture land, some parts being tilled and sown with corn; also that two water mills for grinding corn had been erected.

    In 1789, by a grant under the Duchy Seal, the park was conveyed to the Earl of Sefton for a valuable consideration, and in course of time the water mills gave place to the wind-mill which occupied the site until it ultimately came into the possession of the late Mr William Oldfield Wilson, the founder of the firm of W O & J Wilson. Coming to Liverpool from Stockport, Mr Wilson took the Rigby Street Mill, and when in 1847 he sold this to Messrs. G & E Elliot, the manufacture of flour was transferred to the wind-mill in Toxteth Park. The accompanying illustration, reproduced from an oil painting made at the time, shows the mill as it was when taken over by Mr Wilson.

    The business there developed rapidly, and in 1863 a steam mill was erected adjoining the wind-mill, which, however, continued in use till 1885 when it was dismantled, new machinery being installed, and steam became the motive power also for this mill.

    In 1863 the late Mr Joseph Wilson joined his brother in Partnership, and took a prominent part in the management of the business. Both brothers had received practical training at their father's mill in Stockport, where the milling industry had been successfully carried on by the Wilson family for three generations. Both were men of fine physique and energy, and fully alive to the great changes about to be wrought in milling by the introduction of improved machinery."
    End of quote.

    The rest of the history goes on in a similar vein - it had, after all, been written for the trade journal "Milling", and it's a publicity piece for Wilson's - so I'll just extract some relevant parts.

    "In 1871 the High Park Mills were found to be inadequate for the requirements of the trade, and the firm lost no time in supplying the want by the erection of the massive stone building known as South End Mills, the stone for this being quarried out of the adjacent land."

    It appears that High Park Mill and South End Mill were both part of the same site, with South End Mill being the "tower block" that is seen in the 1920s photo of Grove Cottage.

    "Further additions were made to the already substantial block of buildings, and in 1874 the imposing warehouse in Grain Street was erected."

    "By this time (ie 1874) great changes had taken place in the district. When the property was first occupied by the founder of the firm, the surroundings of the old wind-mill were quite rural. Between it, and what is now Caryl Street, was a tract of rocky common land known as "Mill-fields", and partly occupied with gorse bushes, a sandy shore and, later, timber yards, occupied the site of the present magnificent South End Docks. South Hill Road and the Dingle were then residential suburbs where many of the Liverpool merchants resided."

    "During the partnership of Mr W O Wilson and Mr Joseph Wilson the firm erected streets of houses in the immediate neighbourhood of their mills for the convenience of the employees. An Institute for recreation was also opened, both partners taking the deepest interest in the welfare of every man in their employ, ever ready with help and advice in all times of trouble or sickness, either in the case of the employees or their families."

    "In 1880 a disastrous fire occurred at the South End Mills, the chief portion of the mill and warehouse being burned. Steps were promptly taken to reinstate the plant, the old machinery being replaced with that of the most improved type, and a few years later more modern and powerful engines were installed, these superseding the original engines which had been constructed and erected under the direction of Mr W O Wilson."

    "The year 1886 saw the High Park Mills lighted by electricity, and a few years later a larger plant was laid down, by which means the entire group of mills, warehouses, and offices were lighted, and the old system of gas lighting entirely abolished, the electric current being generated on the premises. With a view of further minimising the risk of fire a complete installation of fire sprinklers was introduced, the whole of the buildings being fitted with these safeguards."

    "In 1892-3 extensive wheat silos were erected, capable of holding large quantities of wheat, thus enabling the firm to stock the various qualities of grain necessary for the regular production of their well known flours, to carry into effect their motto of "Highest quality, Greatest regularity," the result of which has done much to develop and retain their present high position in the milling world."

    "To cope with the further growth of the trade, it was found necessary in 1894 to undertake the reconstruction of South End Mills, and a new roller plant was laid down, largely increasing the output of flour, and this necessitated in the following year a further addition in the shape of new and increased power engines. The remodelling of the mill and the erection of the engines, drive, etc., were carried out under the direction of Mr Frank C Wilson (the present Chairman of the Company) who is a practical engineer and miller."

    "A few years later large warehouses in Bran Street were built for the storage of mill products, special attention being paid to secure the most favourable conditions of storage, ventilation and temperature."

    The above was taken from the Company's version of their history.
    However, contemporary maps paint a different picture of the early history.
    The 1767 Map of Toxteth Park shows the field in which the mill would appear. It is called "Rough and Hollow", and, significantly, there are no buildings shown at all.
    1816 & 1826 maps: Shows a little sketch of a windmill.
    1835 Map: Mill. Mrs Scott.
    1847 map: New Park Windmill.
    1881 map: High Park Mills.
    It was still Wilsons in the 1930s, but it was later called Spillers Wilson King.
    It is currently ADM Milling Ltd.

    My personal interpretation is that the windmill was erected after 1789, but before 1816.
    I can't confirm that it replaced two water mills.
    Don't water mills require a flow of water?
    What is the significance of the word "New" used on the 1847 map?
    With this history being published in 1911, could it have been on the occasion of the centenary of the windmill, but somewhere along the way the author forgot to mention that important point?

    By the way, the sketches referred to are very poor - my copy of the history was a poor photocopy.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 05-13-2007 at 07:10 PM.

  18. #48
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    Thanks Phil
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  19. #49
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Thanks Phil
    You're welcome, Kev.
    I did quite a lot of research for that piece, so it's good that it's out in the public domain, rather than just sitting in my 'sent mail'.

  20. #50
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    Well done.
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    Default Wavertree Mill

    Once located at the top of Charles Berrington Rd. Demolished early part of the 20th C. See


    http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/Albu...&a=31518811&f=
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    Once located at the top of Charles Berrington Rd. Demolished early part of the 20th C. See


    http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/Albu...&a=31518811&f=
    Many thanks, Taffy. Great to see the Wavertree Mill, though now gone, still commemorated on the site where it stood on Charles Berrington Road, as well as on the Web, courtesy of the Wavertree historical society.

    Chris
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  23. #53
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    Yes, i've had the pleasure of meeting Mike Chitty and Rob Zatz of the Wavertree History Society, very knowledgeable men of that area and Mike even had a photo of Gerard Gardens for me.
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    Once located at the top of Charles Berrington Rd. Demolished early part of the 20th C.
    Ah well, I was only 500 metres out (I did say that it was in the area of the Coffee House/Blind School)...see start of thread.

  25. #55
    chippie
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    Default Olive Mount Hospital

    does anyone know if the hospital is still around or if it has been demolished?

    When I was working in Mill Road Hospital, I remember that we used to have patients from the children,s home. Did the hospital get turned into the home or were they separate places?

    Does anyone have a photo of the hospital please.?

  26. #56
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    It was demolished in the early 90's. A private housing estate was built there, my sister has lived there since they were built.
    There is a picture of it on this site.
    http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.h...iverpool.shtml
    Last edited by shytalk; 06-15-2007 at 05:53 PM.
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  27. #57
    chippie
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    Default Olive Mount Hospital

    Thank you Shytalk, much appreciated

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    Post TOWNSEND MILL/REGENT RD

    Does anyone know where the Townsend Mill was? I found a pic/painting of it on http://www.mersey-gateway.org listed as Townsend Mill/Regent Rd. Does this mean it was on Regent rd & near Townsend st?
    Browniescorner
    out of my mind.....back in 5 minutes.....

  29. #59
    Member ghughesarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Browniescorner View Post
    Does anyone know where the Townsend Mill was? I found a pic/painting of it on http://www.mersey-gateway.org listed as Townsend Mill/Regent Rd. Does this mean it was on Regent rd & near Townsend st?

    Just east of Nelson Dock on Regent Road. Actually it was "New Townsend" Mill, the original Townsend Mill (which was demolished about the same time that the Regent Road mill was built in 1792) was where the fountain is outside the Walker Art Gallery.

    The Townsend name in both cases described the location of the mills when they were built - at the end of the town.

    It was burnt out in 1880 but the bottom four floors of the tower were still standing until the 1950s.
    Last edited by ghughesarch; 02-08-2008 at 02:56 PM.

  30. #60
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    This is located at the Southern end of Smithdown Road. The building has recently been surrounded in scaffolding (I think it sells bathrooms etc).


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