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Thread: St. Peter's Church, Church Street

  1. #61
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    Sorry for being thick, I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?


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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underworld View Post
    I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?
    A Pro-cathedral is a parish church that is temporarily serving as the cathedral or co-cathedral of a diocese. It can be Prothestant or Catholic.

    Maltese Cross - it's all explained on Post No. 20, on this thread [copied below]. Sorry if most have seen this before.


    Quote Originally Posted by dazza View Post
    Thanks everyone for your posts, and thanks Ged and wsteve for your questions. Hopefully I'll be able to answer you both below.

    Questions raised:

    1. Where was the original building line of Church Street, as the street today is much wider?
    2. St. Peter's church is set at a different angle to the street. Did the early buildings following this line, or the street line?
    3. Where is current position of St Peter's Altar today, and does the Maltese cross sit directly over it, [city myth]?

    OK, I think I've managed to answer all of them below. Image descriptions are given below each image.



    Image 1 - 4 Maps of Church Street ^ 1725, 1765, 1769 & 1848 from LRO map collections.

    John Chadwick's 1725 map - shows the Church Street, 21 years after the completion of St Peter's in 1704. Initially, a plot of land was selected on ground high enough to avoid the tidel extremes of the pool, which flowed across the junction of Lord Street, at that time. The south side of street was developed first, and with the introduction of Church Lane and Church Alley broke the street line into three faceted parts. The buildings of 1725, line through to meet the church's perimeter boundary wall, [ie: graveyard boundary wall with railings, Church St. side].

    John Eyes' 1765 map - shows that the pavement kerb edge, not the buildings, lining through with the church's boundary, which is a little confusing because only 4 years later [1769], George Perry surveys the area again, in much greater detail, and showing all the individual buildings - again the buildings now line through with the church's perimeter boundary wall.

    The OS 1848 map - shows the building line close to the church boundary, but has started to recede back slightly, making the street marginally wider.

    The original street line: The one constant here, is the church precinct [the church + churchyard, or temenos], which is consecrated ground, and is arguably beyond the commercial pressures of shopkeepers and residents that surround it. In general, the north side of churchyards are rarely used - no one wants to be burried where the sun never shines! Sometimes plots on this side were traditionally reserved for criminals, prostitutes, or unworthies. I mention this because church's tended to be positioned on site, to maximize as much of the south-facing aspect as possible, which was the case with St. Peter's. Therefore to move the boundary wall inward [after it's initial placing] would make little sense, similarly moving it outward, would make little sense also, as you would need to re-consecrate the land purchased, and besides that, no one would reserve a plot on the north side of a cemetery anyway, and would be a wasted exercise.

    So, we can have confidence, that the church's north perimeter boundary wall, is the one reference which has not been altered through the years.


    Answer to Q.1: Church Street's original building line, from 1704, is plotted on Images 2 & 3 below. The street widening and recession away from this line can be seen clearly on Image 3, particularly in the case of the old Post Office. Also see Image 4B, for the PO view.


    Answer to Q.2: The buildings follow the street line, not the church's line. When the church-plot was purchased, builders on neighbouring plots would not have wasted any time setting up their designs and commenced building [represented by the thick black dashed line on image 2 & 3]. In setting out St Peter's, the architect, had decided to orientate the building about it's west/ east axis, as was the custom with most unrestricted sites.






    Image 2 - Map overlay, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.

    The 1848 map [shown in 'red'] is laid over a current map [shown in 'black'] and the original Church Street building line [1704] is shown in thick dashed line, and the church boundary, is shown in a smaller dashed line.

    Image 3 is an enlargement of above.






    Image 3 - Enlargement of image 2 above, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.


    Answer to Q.3: Notice the current arcade [from Church St. through to School Lane & Liverpool One] is shown on the map. I've plotted the actual location of St Peter's altar - which falls within the first unit, on the LH side of the arcade, and also - the Maltese cross is situated on the pavement just outside the arcade's entrance.

    Also, notice the 'green' zone on the map which represents the extent of today's pavement over the original graveyard.

    I hope this is finally case-closed for the Maltese cross over the altar myth?






    Image 4 - 4 Herdman Views Around Church Street ^ from the LRO Herdman Collection.

    Image 4B shows the widening of Church Street, with the demolition of the Old Post Office at the junction of Church St./ Church Alley.


    If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading.

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    Great stuff Daza. Nice one.

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    Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated!

    C
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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated!

    C
    Thanks for that Chris. I like playing around with maps, photo's etc... So hopefully it'll help explain the Maltese Cross / Altar myth.

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    Fantastic Darren
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    Cheers Kev.

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    A truly fascinating and informative thread. Many thanks to everyone for this. I'll never walk past this site again without imagining the old church there!

    I may have missed it if it's been mentioned previously, but should note that, as well as the brass cross, the old church is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).

    In 1880 John Charles Ryle was appointed the first Bishop of Liverpool and was installed in Saint Peter?s Church, the Pro-Cathedral, which was later described by the Rector of Liverpool as ?ugly & hideous?...
    Chester: a Virtual Stroll Around the Walls-
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhowe View Post
    is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).
    Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Default Cross Keys

    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.
    Ged/ knowhowe,

    The cross keys are picked up in an earlier thread. See post #24 here.

    Maybe we should joined these threads together? I'll see what Kev thinks?

    D.

  11. #71
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Default Crossed Keys - Part 2

    Crossed Keys are traditionally a symbol of St. Peter - being the first pope, and keeper to the gates of heaven.

    We can see that the original architect of "Keys Court" [another reference] has deliberately set out to recreate these 'gates of heaven' in the building's facade design. Basically, the area where the new bronze infill panels [incl. clock] are located - suggesting a great portal, or entrance.

    At the top of this suggested 'gateway' is a pair of sculptured "crossed keys", which reinforces the architectural metaphor below, of a god-proportioned entrance. Similar to the giant doorways you often see on Greek temples.

    ---

    Woolworths - this was also the site of Woolworths, as I'm sure they'll be lots of members who can still remember it there? The first Woolies originally started across the street in 1909, [as St. Peter's church occupied this site from 1704-1922]. The original Woolworth building still stands today, and can be viewed here in post #52, which is the Clarke's shoeshop in the photo. It was previously the 'Henry Miles' shop, which you can see in the postcard view, opposite to St. Peter's, which is just visible on the right. The original store front that faced St Peter's church [for 13 years] can also be seen.

    ---

    Images - 1. Keys Court entrance, and 2. close up. 3. pre-1909 view of Church St. [looking towards Central Stn], 4. The original Woolworths Church St. shopfront.

    Apologies, the image resolution is not great on the second image - hopefully, someone with a super powerful zoom lens can take some detailed shots for us all when passing? Any volunteers?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.
    Think your right there,Ged! (oops,didn't finish the thread!)

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.
    Oops. Quite right.

    The thread about Liverpool's Woolies is very interesting-

    http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...d=1#post207149

    I've added a bit there about the first Woolies here in Chester.
    Chester: a Virtual Stroll Around the Walls-
    http://www.chesterwalls.info

    The Liverpool Gallery-
    http://www.chesterwalls.info/gallery/liverpool.html

    The Chester Shop
    http://www.thechestershop.com


    Chester & Liverpool Guided Walks
    http://www.chesterwalls.info/guidedwalks.html

  14. #74
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    Here is a postcard view from 1904.


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    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hi Philip,
    You are right about Churches of Liverpool. It does suffer from a number of factual inaccuracies and I was never entirely happy with it. The major problem was the lack of an index - which makes navigate the book very frustrating. I am planning a revised book - with many new photos (again I was disappointed with the printing - it was in the early days of digital photography and there is quite a bit of bitmapping).
    How is Tramride to Walton[/I] coming on. Still interested.

  16. #76
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    Default Answers and questions.

    Hi guys my first post and im not from Liverpool (sorry)

    Firstly I am an architecture student and i am doing my dissertation on churches and I can tell you why St Peters does not "line up" with the street. This is to do with the alter facing exactly east in the direction of Bethlehem. I also have a question as I am currently doing a theoretical project on church street which is partially about remembering the church which is the founding of the streets name ( I assume). I am wondering what the church was built out of I suspect it is either portland stone or sandstone but im not sure and it would greatly help me with my project? I very much enjoyed reading this thread and found the information about the keys on the old woolworths building and the Maltese Cross on the floor of particular interest, I hadnt noticed them when i was there. It is a shame that they are so easy to walk past and not notice as the church was the founding of the street. I hope my answer is of interest and that someone knows the answer to my question.

    Thanks

  17. #77
    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome.

    This is a fascinating thread, glad it's been ressurected.
    I've just read through all the posts and it's very interesting.

  18. #78
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    Hi STE, and welcome to Yo!

    As you predicted, St Peters is aligned exactly on a West/East axis, (as in Greek, Roman & Christian religions.) There was very little built on the north side of Church Street at the time of its consecration in 1704. If you were lucky enough to attend the first service - and travelling in from Lord Street, you would have crossed a stone bridge, over the Pool, to access Church Street, as the Old Dock was not completed for another 11 years, in 1715.

    I believe the church/pro-cathedral was constructed from red sandstone, similar, if not the same as the Anglican cathedral stonework.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

  19. #79
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    Welcome back dazza. Nice description of the walk up to the church.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Ditto.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Thanks Ged

    It's been a while since my last post! Good to be back though. I did manage to make it down to the Museum of Liverpool two weeks ago. I recognised your model - congratulations - at last, a worthy home for it, fantastic. I loved the graffiti on the walls, and the Corpi doing works to the pavement; real attention to detail. Well done.

    Daz
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

  22. #82
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    Thanks dazza, just as I remember it. The memories it has evoked and the various contacts i've received have been immense. Hope you're staying longer this time round.
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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    That's brilliant. I'll be around for a few more posts this time.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Nice to see you back here, Dazza.

    Chris
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    Thanks very much guys that is helpful I wouldnt have thought it would have been that material but it will make interesting contemplation for this project. Might be posting again very soon as im using the metropolitan cathedral for my dissertation.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Nice to see you back here, Dazza.

    Chris
    Thanks Chris, and good to hear from you. I'm still catching on some of the more recent posts. I'm sorry I missed you when you were back in Liverpool for your Mom's service. I'm glad you made the journey, as you had mentioned it previously.

    All the best,

    Daz
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Nice to have you back Dazza.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    Nice to have you back Dazza.
    Thanks fortinian.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Hi Dazza,glad to see you back! Just wondered if there are any Herdman prints of that view,or similar?

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Hi Steve, thanks, and good to hear from you. I would be surprized if there wasn't a Herdman painting of St Peters. Perhaps Kev might have posted one on his Herdman threads?

    Here's a coloured postcard view:

    http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/i...pool/peter.jpg
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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