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Thread: St. Peter's Church, Church Street

  1. #1
    Newbie Emmanuel Goldstein's Avatar
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    Here is a picture of St Peters, source unknown to me


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    And here is a picture of the cross in the pavement in Church street where the high altar once stood.


  2. #2
    PhilipG
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    Default The Cross in Church Street.

    I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
    The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
    As this map shows.

    Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.
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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
    The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
    As this map shows.

    Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.
    Hi Philip

    That is my understanding as well, Philip.

    Chris
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  4. #4
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Philip

    That is my understanding as well, Philip.

    Chris
    Yes, it's a case of "when the legend becomes greater than the truth, print the legend".
    I might be mis-quoting somewhat!

    "Churches of Liverpool" should be bought for the photos, not for the text.
    I'm mis-quoting again, but that was one of the reviews.

  5. #5
    theninesisters
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    A bit of info on the bells from St Peters:

    • 1704: Church consecrated

    • 1707: Back four bells cast

    • 1724: Front four bells cast

    • 1800: The first peal in Liverpool was rung here. Grandsire Triples.

    • 1830: Bells dispersed when the 1830 peal was erected. Three of the 1707 bells were sent to St John, Knotty Ash (35˝” the fifth), St Catherine Abercromby Square (36˝” the sixth) and the tenor bell was sent to St Augustine Everton (52”). One of the 1724 bells found its way to St. John Liverpool (39”). The bell at St Catherine Abercromby Square had been broken up by 1928 (Cheetham) and the church demolished in 1966. St. Augustine Everton was destroyed by enemy bombing in May 1941 and St. John Liverpool was demolished in 1899 - the site now occupied by St. George’s Hall.
    The bell at St. John Knotty Ash still exists.

    The new 1830 ring of bells was first rung on Sunday April 11th 1830, the original 1830 trebles were recast in 1839 as the were found too weak


    • 1905: Last peal at St Peter’s.

    • c1920: The bells were removed from the tower by Taylor’s. After being stored both at Taylor’s and Mears’ and after tuning they were rehung at St. Helens Parish Church, although it was considered for a while to hang them at St. Barnabas Penny Lane, but this did not come to fruition as the vicar of Penny Lane at the time thought the tower not strong enough.

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    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
    The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
    As this map shows.

    Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.
    That map has 'Tarlton Street' on it. Isn't it Tarleton Street (with an 'e') nowadays?

  7. #7
    PhilipG
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    Default History of St Peter's.

    Paul has compiled a very comprehensive history on toxteth.net:

    http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverp...t%20peters.htm

    I made a small contribution.

  8. #8
    MissInformed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    A bit of info on the bells from St Peters:

    • 1704: Church consecrated

    • 1707: Back four bells cast

    • 1724: Front four bells cast

    • 1800: The first peal in Liverpool was rung here. Grandsire Triples.

    • 1830: Bells dispersed when the 1830 peal was erected. Three of the 1707 bells were sent to St John, Knotty Ash (35˝” the fifth), St Catherine Abercromby Square (36˝” the sixth) and the tenor bell was sent to St Augustine Everton (52”). One of the 1724 bells found its way to St. John Liverpool (39”). The bell at St Catherine Abercromby Square had been broken up by 1928 (Cheetham) and the church demolished in 1966. St. Augustine Everton was destroyed by enemy bombing in May 1941 and St. John Liverpool was demolished in 1899 - the site now occupied by St. George’s Hall.
    The bell at St. John Knotty Ash still exists.

    The new 1830 ring of bells was first rung on Sunday April 11th 1830, the original 1830 trebles were recast in 1839 as the were found too weak


    • 1905: Last peal at St Peter’s.

    • c1920: The bells were removed from the tower by Taylor’s. After being stored both at Taylor’s and Mears’ and after tuning they were rehung at St. Helens Parish Church, although it was considered for a while to hang them at St. Barnabas Penny Lane, but this did not come to fruition as the vicar of Penny Lane at the time thought the tower not strong enough.
    you and your bells!!

  9. #9
    theninesisters
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    It's all good and rare information

  10. #10
    Senior Member christy's Avatar
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    I like the story about nobody being able to decide on the design for the doorways so they used all four. Two can be seen in this picture - one with a full pediment and one with a broken one.

    The cross is interesting in the pavement because church street is actually much wider than it was when the church was there and I wonder what was located above the cross. It is at least in the churchyard area if not below a wall or something. Would be interesting to see 2 maps overlayed.

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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayjaykay View Post
    That map has 'Tarlton Street' on it. Isn't it Tarleton Street (with an 'e') nowadays?
    Hi ayjaykay

    You are correct. The family name was Tarleton, a powerful merchant family who grew to prominence in the affairs of Liverpool in the later 17th Century. I also noted that the "e" was missing on the map. John Tarleton was a mayor of Liverpool in the 1760's known as the "Great T" and his son was General Sir Banastre Tarleton, M.P. for Liverpool, who first made his reputation as a lieutenant colonel in the American War for Independence (1776-1783).

    Chris
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  12. #12
    PhilipG
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    The correct spelling of Tarleton is on the later maps.

    I'll post the 1890 & 1924 maps later (off out now).
    The side wall of St Peter's aligns with the front wall of Woolworth's, but at a slight angle.
    The cross is a few feet in front of the building (will check & see how far).
    Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, or at least at the west end of the church?
    Which is where St Peter's tower was.

  13. #13
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Default Postion of Church Altars

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    The correct spelling of Tarleton is on the later maps.

    I'll post the 1890 & 1924 maps later (off out now).
    The side wall of St Peter's aligns with the front wall of Woolworth's, but at a slight angle.
    The cross is a few feet in front of the building (will check & see how far).
    Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, or at least at the west end of the church?
    Which is where St Peter's tower was.

    Altars can be anywhere in a church but the principal high altar is usually always at the nominal east end of the church. This has to do with facing Jerusalem. Interestingly St Nicholas at the Pierhead has the altar at the west end nearly under the tower. The churchwas designed after WW2 damage and rebuilding

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    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Aren't they reopening an 'arcade' through to School Lane as part of the Paradise Street developments? Will that go through the current HMV building (former Woolworths)?

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    Senior Member christy's Avatar
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    Dont know if its true but I heard it was going to be the old street at the side of WH Smiths - part of next. Hard to know which it will be. HMV have avery thin entrance and would have little shop left and next have their escalators on the side that would be taken from them. Cant see either wanting to lose floorspace so I wonder if one of them will be ,moving into the new development?

  16. #16
    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christy View Post
    Dont know if its true but I heard it was going to be the old street at the side of WH Smiths - part of next. Hard to know which it will be. HMV have avery thin entrance and would have little shop left and next have their escalators on the side that would be taken from them. Cant see either wanting to lose floorspace so I wonder if one of them will be ,moving into the new development?
    Yes, I was thinking that HMV might move into the new development. I can't see Next moving, or losing 1/2 of their shop (which is 1 of their biggest branches).

    The official site says "Conversion of an existing pair of shops into a one and two storey arcade and shop units. The intention with this break-through is to create a physical link to Peter's Lane from Church Street. The form of the existing building above ground level is to be respected and the new break-through to be sympathetic to the strong symmetry of the Church Street facade"

    http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Proje...lans/site8.htm

    and it looks like it's Top Shop or HMV rather than Next on this small image:

    Last edited by ayjaykay; 01-08-2007 at 03:46 PM.

  17. #17
    PhilipG
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    The image above is definitely HMV (Woolies).

    The cross is about 12 feet from the front of the building.
    But I have to admit that it's been relaid.
    In the same place?
    I do remember that it was some distance away.

    Here's the maps I mentioned earlier.
    The old one was surveyed in 1890, and the other in 1924.
    Note that the block that Woolworths was in hadn't been completed.
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  18. #18
    theninesisters
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    I can think of very few Churches in Liverpool which have the alter under the Tower - most churches have an entrance at the bottom of the tower with the ringing chamber hidden part way up a tower.

  19. #19
    PhilipG
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    [QUOTE=Jona76;32600]
    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, QUOTE]

    I can think of very few in Liverpool - most churches have an entrance at the bottom of the tower with the ringing chamber hidden part way up a tower.
    Sorry Jona.

    Was it the tower then that was always at the west end?
    I was only going by memory before.
    It's been a long time since I used to be a choirboy.

    Anyway, the point of this discussion was the fact that the cross is not on the site of the altar.

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    My friend worked in HMV up until 10 months ago and he said then that they were moving to the new development

  21. #21
    theninesisters
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    [QUOTE=PhilipG;32601]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post

    Sorry Jona.

    Was it the tower then that was always at the west end?
    I was only going by memory before.
    It's been a long time since I used to be a choirboy.

    Anyway, the point of this discussion was the fact that the cross is not on the site of the altar.

    I'll agree with you there Philip about the cross not being on the site of the altar. Does anyone have any concrete (excuse the pun) evidence to this? I've heard it myself from a different source but I believe that this is the 'norm' but not true.

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    Senior Member christy's Avatar
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    Yes, youse are right, defo HMV. Be nice to have a better HMV in the new development because that one now is so awkward if there is a Queue at the front. Its so narrow its a pain getting through. Still a shame they couldn't open church lane up instead as it would be a more attractive street pattern IMO.

    Would love to have seen that open space with the church in the centre and seen the original buildings facing on to the church with the Bluecoat at the rear. What a lovely space that would have been for the shopping area if the churchyard was planted.

    Would love to have walked along Old Post Office place aswell - looks so interesting.
    Last edited by christy; 01-08-2007 at 10:42 PM.

  23. #23
    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    The image above is definitely HMV (Woolies).

    The cross is about 12 feet from the front of the building.
    Yes, I thought that too. But Burtons is on the end of the block (corner of Church Alley), with Top Shop next door and then HMV. The diagram seems to have the end building (Burtons) and then HMV. Perhaps the new arcade will be through both Top Shop and HMV. It does say 2 existing shops on the official site.


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    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    The symbol of St Peter, the Cross Keys, appear on the top of the Woolworths/HMV building (covered in anti-pigeon netting)
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    I'm certainly learning plenty on this forum
    I'll look out for that next time I'm in town.

  26. #26
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    The symbol of St Peter, the Cross Keys, appear on the top of the Woolworths/HMV building (covered in anti-pigeon netting)
    Thanks, Marky.
    That's some zoom lens you have.

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    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by floyd View Post
    My friend worked in HMV up until 10 months ago and he said then that they were moving to the new development
    Apparently, HMV is closing down in the next few days and they will start work creating the 'arcade' through to the new development. HMV will have a temporary shop in Bold Street (probably Radiant House, the former Gas showroom) until they open in the new development.

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    Yep, they are knocking a large hole through HMV which will create as u say, an 'arcade', the walkway will take shoppers through to the paradise street development. Wasn't there once a Burger King in HMV?
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    Senior Member ayjaykay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Yep, they are knocking a large hole through HMV which will create as u say, an 'arcade', the walkway will take shoppers through to the paradise street development. Wasn't there once a Burger King in HMV?
    Yes, there was a Burger King upstairs at the front in the 80s. I think upstairs might have been Burger King only, with HMV restricted to downstairs.

  30. #30
    Senior Member christy's Avatar
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    Pretty sure that Burger king was there on its own upstairs and closed for HMV to take over. HMV was then just upstairs for a while until they took over some of Topshop downstairs and renovated the shop again. Seem to remember HMV having a small shop for a while somewhere else. Did they take over Revolver records in Lord street or am I imagining that?

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