Thanks for the offer Zap, but it's already in hand.
Thanks for the offer Zap, but it's already in hand.
Liverpool Record Office hasn't made a mistake with the labelling of the photographs. In 1927 the site was excavated by Charles Larkin prior to the construction of the toilets. Larkin's work identified the location of the moat.
Cheers,
Paul.
Hi Paul,Originally Posted by krakatoa
There's no doubt the excavation is in the moat. But what can actually be seen in the photographs are remains of inside St Georges Church, which was built over the moat. Hence, the problems with subsidence of Thomas Steers' first design of church tower. This was later replaced by John Foster Junior's spire. Part of which can be seen in the excavation photo's.
I've found a reference for Larkins work, which I'll check on the next visit to the LRO, and report back. Thanks again.
Larkin, F.C. 'Excavations on the Site of Liverpool Castle, 1927' in T.H.S.L.C. vol.79, p.175-197.
Castle Moat Position in Derby Square.
Two maps overlaid: The red map shows the castle ditch and surrounding streets. The Castle is not actually drawn in this illustration. It would be located in the middle square shown.
The second map 1848 OS, shows St George's Church, which is partially sited over the moat's location. The church spire, or tower sits directly over it. The 'blue-tone' shown is the 1927 excavation site for the toliets in Derby Square - from Larkin's excavation previously mentioned.
Castle moat siting over 1848 OS map.
Streets used as datum points: Castle Street [west side], Lord Street [North], Moor Street [as is], Redcross Street [North], James Street [North].
Extracts from - Charles Larkin's Excavation Derby Square, 1927
Source: T.H.S.L.C. Vol.79 p.175-197
I've only included the illustrations and not the accompanying text.
Details of the excavation site about Victoria Monument [below].
Excavation site in detail, showing the 'L' shaped corner remains of St George's Church tower, and also the 'L' shaped NW aisle wall - to John Foster Junior's rebuilding of Thomas Steers' earlier church. [below]
Thomas Steers' earlier St George's Church. [below]
Composite plan showing all phases of development about Derby Square. Notice the pinch-point about 'Preeson's Row'. This is due to the houses which used to surround the castle [No.11 on plan] on the south western corner. Hence the funny step on the buildings in Preeson's Row. [below]
James Street tunnel [below] from the Castle Moat to the shore line. It is mined through solid rock, and wasn't originally under James Street, as the street itself was considerably narrower back then - the tunnel would have passed beneath the south side houses of early James Street. A drainage channel was incorporated into the tunnel, as seen on the sections. Also the dotted line shown beneath the tunnel represents the spring tide line. [below]
Photo 1 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927
The remains of St Georges church tower and side aisle wall. The groove on the floor by the timber shore is the east ramp of the west facing castle moat.
Photo 2 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927
The raking groove on the ground is the edge of the castle moat ramp [beneath the two angled timber props] The lifting table with the man and shovel is an early method of lifting spoil [soil] out of a deep hole without the aid of diggers or mechanical hoists.
Photo 3 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927
The curving line shown on the floor is the east ramp of the castle moat. Everything to the left is just backfill.
Photo 4 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927
Victoria Monument can just be seen above/ right.
All photographs courtesy of LRO.
I'm resurrecting some older posts which got carpet bombed into oblivion by the some of the rapid fire chat posts.
I hope you guys enjoy?
Ha, gotta be me again. Sorry Daz. I never realised folk took the hump about being the top of the todays list. It never even occurred to me.
Those pictures are fantastic, thanks for posting them.
Loved Bidston's stories as well. Wonder if you can still do some or lart of them?
There's a place for everything on Yo Pabs. And everyone has different interests. I post on Chat, but have other interests as well. Chat turns around a lot more posts than others...and pushes everyone else's thread off the page, so other members don't have an opportunity to comment.
I was going to bump up the Schools thread, but that's ended up being another one-liner thread.
Wonder what the casual viewer thinks of Yo! these days?
Anyway, back on topic.
Sort of.
Why were toilets only provided for Gents in the old days, but nowadays there always queues for the Ladies?
Both interesting question QS.I was going to bump up the Schools thread, but that's ended up being another one-liner thread.
Wonder what the casual viewer thinks of Yo! these days?
Anyway, back on topic.
Sort of.
Why were toilets only provided for Gents in the old days, but nowadays there always queues for the Ladies?
The second: I don't know? One possible reason is that women didn't work in offices back then. Maybe the department stores offered some facilities, which women could use?
I believe it was to discourage street walkers. There used to be a massive problem with prostiutes.
I thought that was just Lime Street? Maybe Paradise street earlier.
QS - women's loos have more cubicles than the mens [I've designed a few] but women use them for chat, make-up, refresh, all sorts of reasons other than what they're designed for. Men on the other hand are more target forcused, and are in and out, quick turnover. My guess anyway.
I know the White Star in Button Street never had womens toilets until the late seventies for that reason.
Paradise Street was certainly paradise for sailors.
There were more brothels there than anywhere else.
No accident (pardon the pun) that the VD clinic was there.
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