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Thread: Liverpool Overhead Railway 1957

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    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Default Liverpool Overhead Railway 1957

    A depressing image for anyone who cares about Liverpool’s history. The Overhead Railway officially closed on December 30th 1956. Subsequent rescues failed and, in September 1957, the dismantlers moved in. The photograph was probably taken at the beginning of the demolition process – although it might have been as late as 1958. The cigarette booth is still [...]

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    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Nice one Colin.

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    That a great pic Colin, the cars and the scooter and the old Lamp post, in colour too, thanks.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    "The cigarette booth is still trading but the scene is a melancholy one (the Goree Piazzas are in the background awaiting their fate). As I have mentioned before, the fate of the Railway was probably inevitable. Its original function of servicing the docks no longer was viable when set against the rapid growth of car ownership. Tourism was not an option and the cost of repairing the whole line was prohibitive. The 1950s was not a time for sentiment – the vision was of a shiny new city of concrete and steel with rapid transit road systems based on the American model. The Overhead was the past and although the campaign to save it was vociferous, no solution other than demolition could be found."

    The Overhead Railway lost ground when the telephone came in, in a big way. 1000s of runners would use it to go from office to office along the docks. British Railways did not nationalize it, obviously assessing the railways beforehand. British railways was created to keep the railways going as they had been neglected and creamed off by private ownership. Private profit and socialized debts - the taxpayer picked up the tab again. The taxpayer was weary about this railway and "maybe" rightly avoided taking it on. It paralleled much of the now existing Northern Line, being not near many residential homes.

    The Overhead was an industrial passenger railway to get people to work and give communication along the docks. Like most of Liverpool's railways, it was freight profit first and people second. A railway so people can travel from district to district improving the quality of life - and economy- was never considered. The original idea was to extend the Dingle tunnel inland to around Sefton Park/Smithdown Road and may even further with no firm route set out. The section from Princes Dock (Irish ferries) to Dingle should have been kept and the tunnel extended inland from Dingle. It would have been a true urban railway then taking people from the suburbs into the city centre and ferry terminals.

    Merseyrail came about in the 1970s when three railways were merged in the city centre to form a complete whole of a Merseyside-wide metro/commuter rail network - London Underground did it in the 1930s. It had been suggested Liverpool do the same pre-WW2. The southern section of the Overhead Railway could have been a part of the new Merseyrail with tunnel and station extensions from Dingle linking into Merseyrail at a convenient point further inland. The Overhead could have been diverted into both the Wapping and Waterloo Tunnels serving people further inland. Its advantage was when it went inland and that could be achieved at three points: Dingle, Wapping Tunnel & Waterloo Tunnel.

    Railways create economic growth. The Overhead as it stood in Dec 1956 would not create much at all. As an integrated part of Merseyrail it would have, so it was worth keeping the structure and bringing forward the creation of Merseyrail metro by 15 years or so. It appears few had such vision.

    The rot on the steel structure would not re-occur as it did. The prime cause of the rot was the steam engines under the railway. It was in effect a two-level railway. The corrosive steam engines had gone being replaced by diesel shunters.

    It is true that of the time no one gave much of a hoot about anything old. The bible black buildings in the city (how Ben E King described the city), due to coal smoke - no one would not had shed a tear if they had all gone, inc the Liver Blgs. Their idea was shiny and new and who could blame them as Liverpool was a very grimy place then - all buildings were dirty because of coal burning. Promotion of gas fired appliances should have been much earlier - the council should have fitted gas appliance in their extensive housing stock immediately post-WW2, if not before.
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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Hope you have seen this Colin:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyycp23Tuqs

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    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    I do agree. The city was definitely looking the worse for wear at that time - and it is easy to criticise decision-makers who wanted to improve the place, even if their vision in retrospect looks flawed. I remember too the reaction (it lasted well into the 1970s) against Victorian architecture. It was regarded as dowdy and ugly (as you say, not helped by the blackened stone/brick). Quentin Hughes like to tell how he took an Italian professor on a guided tour of Liverpool and being asked 'where did you get all this black stone?'.
    At least I feel the days of pulling down buildings without due thought have gone.

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    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Thanks Caedfael - it looks brilliant.
    Back in 1983, I was asked by the Museum for ideas to regenerate torism and suggested a reconstructed trip along the Overhead using the existing carriages in their collection. My idea was for some kind of 'virtual reality' trip - although the technology was only just emerging at that time. (I suggested using the bricked up Dingle tunnel as a possibility - but that was definitely an idea too far).
    Your reconstruction shows what can be done - and I think an Overhead 'experience' would be a goer. We have plenty of film and photographic references to make a realistic 'journey'.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Wilkinson View Post
    I do agree. The city was definitely looking the worse for wear at that time - and it is easy to criticise decision-makers who wanted to improve the place, even if their vision in retrospect looks flawed. I remember too the reaction (it lasted well into the 1970s) against Victorian architecture. It was regarded as dowdy and ugly (as you say, not helped by the blackened stone/brick). Quentin Hughes like to tell how he took an Italian professor on a guided tour of Liverpool and being asked 'where did you get all this black stone?'.
    At least I feel the days of pulling down buildings without due thought have gone.
    Once people saw what was below the layer of grime they changed their minds. The beauty of the buildings emerged. We are still making the same mistakes. Some new buildings are made of cheap concrete and the stuff gets dirty quick. They never learn. In our damp climate you need the materials to resist the grime.

    There was just not enough vision. What there was, like the Shankland Plan, was just appalling. The inner motorway he designed was partially built. The section along the Dock Rd to Leeds St. This should be put right ASAP. Even the NY Times critisede it, as it formed abig barrier between the city and Albert Dock.

    The original designers of the Overhead were lax. It only went inland at both ends. Even in 1893 the Wapping and Waterloo Tunnels could have been used to get trains further inland - how much the passengers would have interfered with the freight I do not know. Also the tunnels were owned by different companies. Many men had to take a bus from home to the Dock Rd and get the Overhead along its length, while getting to a station further inland at various points would have been far more convenient. This would have made the Overhead Railway very attractive to many and it probably would have still been with us if it did penetrate inland more.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    I'm due to go down the Dingle Tunnel this week so watch out for a full report soon!!

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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Had a cracking visit to the Dingle Tunnel today. Was a private tour and was organised weeks ago with lots of letter writing - you can't just turn up and expect to go in.

    Pics will be up in a bit but here are two video's below:

    You start off by entering the way that the passengers would from the road, by a long and winding slope, finally ending up on to the Station itself (although nothing remains of the station). There's a workshop/garage at the front sidings and then you are left to go down to the pitch black tunnel (i'd say about a mile walk) and view a vast amount of classic cars along the way!

    It's amazing as you actually get to stand on the 'roof bricks' of the well used Tunnel underneath and feel the trains as they go below you.
    Once you get to the end of the tunnel, you can peer over the wall to see Sefton Street. Cars and Tunnels in one day was cracking!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzxZ2s59HRM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYrDqJfxUN0

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    Martin hmtmaj's Avatar
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    Great pics there Cad, thanks for posting.
    Started the Old Swan Website:

    http://oldswan.piczo.com/?cr=5

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    Fantastic pictures Cad. Why are all the old cars down there, have they been dumped?

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    Trains pass the Stanley Tobacco Warehouse on the overhead railway.



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us


    A view of Water Street at the Strand.




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    .
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    Had a cracking visit to the Dingle Tunnel today. Was a private tour and was organised weeks ago with lots of letter writing - you can't just turn up and expect to go in.

    Pics will be up in a bit but here are two video's below:

    You start off by entering the way that the passengers would from the road, by a long and winding slope, finally ending up on to the Station itself (although nothing remains of the station). There's a workshop/garage at the front sidings and then you are left to go down to the pitch black tunnel (i'd say about a mile walk) and view a vast amount of classic cars along the way!

    It's amazing as you actually get to stand on the 'roof bricks' of the well used Tunnel underneath and feel the trains as they go below you.
    Once you get to the end of the tunnel, you can peer over the wall to see Sefton Street. Cars and Tunnels in one day was cracking!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzxZ2s59HRM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYrDqJfxUN0
    I have been in the station a number of times. It can easily be reused as it is very wide. Why the people of Dingle do not get the local MP and councilor to attempt to get the station recommissioned is beyond me. A Merseyrail station there would pull up that area and attract economic growth. Developers would be attracted around the station. Lighter Docklands Light-Rail cars would be needed.

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    That last image could be easily be mistaken for the elevated track in down town Chicago back in the 1920's.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza View Post
    That last image could be easily be mistaken for the elevated track in down town Chicago back in the 1920's.
    Well yes but it could be said that elevated railways the world over looked similar.

    C
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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Well yes but it could be said that elevated railways the world over looked similar.
    Yes, they quite defined the era. I wonder what legacy we'll leave today for those looking back, one hundred years from now?
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Probably in terms of transportation, the return of trams, or "light rail" as it is known here in the United States.
    Christopher T. George
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Well yes but it could be said that elevated railways the world over looked similar.

    C
    Monorail's do not.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I have been in the station a number of times. It can easily be reused as it is very wide. Why the people of Dingle do not get the local MP and councilor to attempt to get the station recommissioned is beyond me. A Merseyrail station there would pull up that area and attract economic growth. Developers would be attracted around the station. Lighter Docklands Light-Rail cars would be needed.
    I really suspect that it would take slightly more than just a 'few letters' to a local MP to turn a privately owned garage in to a multi million pound costing exercise. Exactly the same could be said to get the old Loop Line/Cycle track back in to use - the only direct way from getting from Halewood to Bootle and beyond in a straight journey.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Probably in terms of transportation, the return of trams, or "light rail" as it is known here in the United States.
    Trams have been proven to be a failure in promoting economic growth. The reason why the government went cool on them. Leeds, Merseytram, Bristol, Edinburgh and South Hants were all back-burnered. Although Leeds does need trams as it has nothing else.

    In Liverpool extending Merseyrail and converting it to light-rail, as per the Docklands Light-Railway is the answer and gives far more bang-for-buck. It also benefits all of Merseyside, as it extends a network making it easy for people to travel from one part of the region to another. The trams only served basically Liverpool and some bit just over the border. Metro's create economic growth. They give a positive go-ahead image.



    Hit the link on the sig below.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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