Mass Grave in Old Swan

[hmtmaj]

2 pages from the book which report on the Mass Graves.

[Waterways]

I think on this thread, the man responsible for the disposal of the bodies was quoted. They were not murdered Irish people from the famine - some anti-English Irish loony came up with. The mainly Irish who died during the famine (mainly from disease), are buried in a mass grave at Anfield cemetery.

However, where they came from was not confirmed. Probably from a city centre cemetery, when the city expanded and buildings were needed. There was a church behind St. Georg's Hall that had its graves removed.

[blackvelvet]

hmtmaj - Those book pages are fantastic, thanks very much.

Waterways - you're probably right in saying that they were just transported from another graveyard. However i'm investigating all angles to this story, from government conspiracy, to cholera, to Irish immigrant massacre! (even though I know the last one is a bit ludicrous)

I was interested to read in the book extract that one man is quoted as saying that the bodies were definitely buried pre-1840, as after that date it became common practice for all coffins to have proper detailed inscriptions. Yet Ken Williams (the man allegedly responsible for the cremation of the bodies) insists that some plaques were dated 1859. If what the man in the Catholic Pictorial said is true, then Williams isn't releasing all the information that he knows!

Keep it coming this is great.

[Waterways]

hmtmaj - Those book pages are fantastic, thanks very much.

Waterways - you're probably right in saying that they were just transported from another graveyard. However i'm investigating all angles to this story, from government conspiracy, to cholera, to Irish immigrant massacre! (even though I know the last one is a bit ludicrous)

I was interested to read in the book extract that one man is quoted as saying that the bodies were definitely buried pre-1840, as after that date it became common practice for all coffins to have proper detailed inscriptions. Yet Ken Williams (the man allegedly responsible for the cremation of the bodies) insists that some plaques were dated 1859. If what the man in the Catholic Pictorial said is true, then Williams isn't releasing all the information that he knows!

Keep it coming this is great.

I think Williams said there was no sign of gunshot or whatever - so mass murder was ruled out. It is difficult to hide mass murder. Some were children. Child mortality was rife, until post WW2. I think they were buried from youngest to oldest.

[wsteve55]

Based on the fact that there have been several mass grave burials, found in various parts of Liverpool,such as the school site in Lower Breck rd.(where over a thousand bodies,mainly young people,were intered,then later,covered over by the White City dogtrack!!!) It doesn't seem improbable that the Old Swan site was something like a cholera pit? As for moving bodies from defunct graveyards,Grant gardens, which was the site of the Necropolis,was closed about 1910, and turned into a park.During trial excavations a couple of years ago,for Merseytram, on this site,......guess what, they found human remains! So I'd conclude from that,only the families/relatives of the deceased who were wealthy,or bothered enough to pay for removal,did so, and the rest were played footie on for years,unknown to the players, etc!

[Ged]

I don't go along with anybody taking the time, trouble and cost - pre 1840s to exhume bodies for transfer elsewhere, unless like has been mentioned, family members would bother to pay for it. It is known that French prisoners of war still lie in St. Johns Gardens where St. Johns church and burial ground existed, likewise in the old Necropolis there still lie remains. As for the Irish, thousands died here - 2000 buried at St. Anthonys, Scotland Road alone including in the crypt. I would think it is more likely a cholera or plague pit. Addison Street had sheds where people suffering disease were put and died, it was then known as Sickmans lane, mentioned earlier by me on this thread.

[lindylou]

Based on the fact that there have been several mass grave burials, found in various parts of Liverpool,such as the school site in Lower Breck rd.(where over a thousand bodies,mainly young people,were intered,then later,covered over by the White City dogtrack!!!)

Is that true !! I've lived by Lower Breck all my life and never heard about this ! I just about remember the White City, I vaguely remember seeing the floodlights from the track when I was little. St Margarets school is there now.
I never heard any of the older Anfielders recount this tale.

here's a picture of the school-

[wsteve55]

Sorry Lindy,
hope I haven't spooked you but I only learnt about this in the Echo, in the late 70's early 80's,when I think the scool was built! I used to pass the dogtrack(though I didn't know that's what it was) on the way to work,and thought it looked a right dump,black painted, corrugated iron!
The Echo probably has this in it's archives, and though I can't be sure,even the Merseymart,had some sort of story about it?
Steve.

[blackvelvet]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

[ChrisGeorge]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

I just posted on another site and I think it applies here as well--

Well written fiction usually does make for an entertaining read.

Chris

[lindylou]

Sorry Lindy,
hope I haven't spooked you but I only learnt about this in the Echo, in the late 70's early 80's,when I think the scool was built! I used to pass the dogtrack(though I didn't know that's what it was) on the way to work,and thought it looked a right dump,black painted, corrugated iron!
The Echo probably has this in it's archives, and though I can't be sure,even the Merseymart,had some sort of story about it?
Steve.

thanks Steve.
maybe I did hear about it then if it was in the Echo - - if so I don't know why I've forgotten about it.
If there were bodies there, it mustn't have been known about generally, as I'm sure my grandparents and older neighbours would have known some story about it. Maybe it was kept quiet at the time.

when the school was built do you think the bodies were left to remain there then ??

[Waterways]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

He needs sectioning - urgently

[Max]

I remember when they were mentioning ghostly monks on that site and claimed a monastry was there. Sure it was in Haunted Lpool 3 or 4 and if the home office has no records, then they won't find it.

[wsteve55]

thanks Steve.
maybe I did hear about it then if it was in the Echo - - if so I don't know why I've forgotten about it.
If there were bodies there, it mustn't have been known about generally, as I'm sure my grandparents and older neighbours would have known some story about it. Maybe it was kept quiet at the time.

when the school was built do you think the bodies were left to remain there then ??

Hi Lindy,
I remember the similarities, with the Old Swan school site,and more recently,Grant gardens, where there are,apparently,still remains,though that was, an official cemetery! It looks like the authorities of the time,weren't too careful about these things,but I suppose during an epidemic,of which there were several,in the 19th century,they had to take desperate measures!
I cant remember for sure,but I think the remains were moved,but based on past experience.....who know's(Ha,just looking back at my previous post, and ironic i've spelled school,as scool)
Ta Steve.

[fortinian]

I'm always cautious of reports of post-middle ages 'mass graves'. Graveyards and burial sites have always been an important part of Christian belief and were generally well documented, especially in the 19th Century.


For example:

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/liv...raveyards.html

Some interesting info here about the Liverpool Cholera Riots, though I apreciate you may not all be able to access the full article:

http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/...tract/60/4/478