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Thread: Mass Grave in Old Swan

  1. #211
    Member PhilipG's Avatar
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    Who's jumping to easy conclusions, Chris?
    You - more than most - should know I try to deal in facts.

    Too many "conclusions" have been suggested in this thread.


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    I'd never studied maps of Old Swan before, so I did today, and am just reporting what I've found.
    The burial grounds are not shown on the 1847 OS map, whereas the Jew's Cemetery near Kensington is.
    The site is a field on an 1835 map.


    On the subject of bread and cheese.
    When I was a kid we used to eat what we called a "bread and cheese" plant.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Who's jumping to easy conclusions, Chris?
    You - more than most - should know I try to deal in facts.
    Philip, I am not saying you are jumping to easy conclusions. The remark was made in relation to those who claimed without evidence that the bodies were Irish immigrants who had been massacred by the British authorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Too many "conclusions" have been suggested in this thread.
    I entirely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I'd never studied maps of Old Swan before, so I did today, and am just reporting what I've found.
    The burial grounds are not shown on the 1847 OS map, whereas the Jew's Cemetery near Kensington is.
    The site is a field on an 1835 map.


    On the subject of bread and cheese.
    When I was a kid we used to eat what we called a "bread and cheese" plant.
    Philip, you might be on to something when you mention the "bread and cheese plant". That might well be the origin of the local Baltimore, Maryland area name I am trying to figure out.

    Thanks

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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  3. #213
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    Dont Shout at me

    An old guy years back told me the graves had something to do with Canadian Soldiers??? Mind you he was in the pub at the time.

    Its deffo not the Irish in the grave. They would never have given them coffins.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

  4. #214
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    The Knotty Ash and Old Swan 1906 map (Godfrey Edition) shows a Burial Ground from the Presbytery to the rear of the buildings on Mill Lane. The map was surveyed 1890-1 and revised 1905-6. The Burial Ground does not have the word 'disused' unlike the later maps.

    The following Google map shows the Junior School has been built over part of the Burial Ground, as already shown by fortinian:
    http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...ld-Swan/page15

  5. #215
    Newbie Hutch's Avatar
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    We will never know the truth. The burial ground as featured on old maps, shows it belonged to a Wesleyan Methodist Chapel (1845-1856) Which was purchased by the Catholic church in 1856. The church was destroyed by fire during the second world war. I remember it being rebuilt when I was a kid. Around about 1957. So I can only presume that all records where destroyed in this fire.
    Mr Williams states that coffins were dated up to 1856, this would be the last year that burials would have taken place in the Chapel graveyard.
    Too many People who know a third person, or met someone down the pub who was there. Have made a farce of a simple burial ground

    ---------- Post added at 11:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    The Knotty Ash and Old Swan 1906 map (Godfrey Edition) shows a Burial Ground from the Presbytery to the rear of the buildings on Mill Lane. The map was surveyed 1890-1 and revised 1905-6. The Burial Ground does not have the word 'disused' unlike the later maps.

    The following Google map shows the Junior School has been built over part of the Burial Ground, as already shown by fortinian:
    http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...ld-Swan/page15
    The rest of the burial ground still looks like scrubland. It is to the left of this google map....

  6. #216
    Martin hmtmaj's Avatar
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    I've never heard the church was destroyed by a fire at all, it was simply not big enough to hold the congregation, in the late 40's.
    The New building was built "around" the former, smaller building then the smaller interior knocked down.

    Mart
    Started the Old Swan Website:

    http://oldswan.piczo.com/?cr=5

  7. #217
    Newbie Hutch's Avatar
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    Hi Martin,
    Got that info from this site :-

    http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Old-Swan/index.html

    Can remember the Church being rebuilt, passed it with me mam going shopping to Old Swan. I am a C of E
    so was not very wise to the reason for the rebuild.
    The BMD records for this church for the period starting 1842, are held at the Liverpool record office.

  8. #218
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    St Oswald Street Wesleyan Church is mentioned on the Liverpool Records Office website:

    St. Paul's Methodist Church, Stoneycroft (formerly Wesleyan Methodist):
    "Services were first held in Stoneycroft in 1838 in a house known as May Place, Broadgreen Road, and in 1841 a large meeting room was secured over a shop in Oswald Street. Wesley church was erected in the same street in 1845. The church prospered, but a trade depression led to its sale to the Roman Catholics who incorporated it in their new church in 1866. The present church in Greenfield Road was opened in 1868, schools being added in 1896."

  9. #219
    Martin hmtmaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    St Oswald Street Wesleyan Church is mentioned on the Liverpool Records Office website:

    St. Paul's Methodist Church, Stoneycroft (formerly Wesleyan Methodist):
    "Services were first held in Stoneycroft in 1838 in a house known as May Place, Broadgreen Road, and in 1841 a large meeting room was secured over a shop in Oswald Street. Wesley church was erected in the same street in 1845. The church prospered, but a trade depression led to its sale to the Roman Catholics who incorporated it in their new church in 1866. The present church in Greenfield Road was opened in 1868, schools being added in 1896."

    May Place, still stands today on Braodgreen Rd.
    As you say, the Church bought the building on St Oswalds St, which again, still stands today, albeit empty.
    St Pauls, is is on Derby Lane.

    Mart
    Started the Old Swan Website:

    http://oldswan.piczo.com/?cr=5

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by marky View Post
    St Oswald Street Wesleyan Church is mentioned on the Liverpool Records Office website:

    St. Paul's Methodist Church, Stoneycroft (formerly Wesleyan Methodist):
    "Services were first held in Stoneycroft in 1838 in a house known as May Place, Broadgreen Road, and in 1841 a large meeting room was secured over a shop in Oswald Street. Wesley church was erected in the same street in 1845. The church prospered, but a trade depression led to its sale to the Roman Catholics who incorporated it in their new church in 1866. The present church in Greenfield Road was opened in 1868, schools being added in 1896."

    As Marky says here, there was St Paul's Methodist Church in Greenfield Road.
    St Paul's in Derby Lane has nothing to do with this thread.

  11. #221
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    The St Pauls mentioned on the Records Office website is marked on the 1906 map at Greenfield Road, St Pauls Church (Wes. Meth).
    The available information on this Church is listed as:
    287 LSE/10 St. Paul's Methodist Church, Stoneycroft (formerly Wesleyan Methodist), 1 volume, 1 pamphlet.
    Google Streetview:
    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...55.85,,0,17.55
    I wonder if the re-interred were given any special mention, a plaque for instance, at Anfield Cemetery.

  12. #222
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    Back to the mass grave...
    Just checked on the Old Swan site.
    Fr McCartney knew it was a burial ground, he tipped off the builders that the graves at the bottom of the garden would have to be moved, before building commenced.
    George Spall, the Parish accountant for St Oswald's allegedly said "We were lucky, the council had to pay 50,000. We sold the land and soon afterwards they discovered the coffins". Untrue Fr McCartney told the builders about the graves.
    Last edited by Hutch; 02-06-2011 at 08:21 AM. Reason: incorrect information

  13. #223
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    There has been a lot written about these graves and their discovery.* I do not wish to re-tread old ground so I have compiled a list of questions that I feel are not answered.
    We can be fairly certain that they were buried between 1842 and 1906 but:

    1. When exactly were they buried

    2. Who were the bodies?

    3. Where are the records for the 1973 exhumation and building work?

    *I don't like to call them mass graves as they were not - the exhumation was a 'mass exhumation' - but the burials were just graves.

  14. #224
    Member PhilipG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    There has been a lot written about these graves and their discovery.* I do not wish to re-tread old ground so I have compiled a list of questions that I feel are not answered.
    We can be fairly certain that they were buried between 1842 and 1906 but:

    My answers are only educated guesses.

    1. When exactly were they buried
    We need to study more maps, as they were clearly marked.
    Unfortunately, there are not many (large-scale) maps of Old Swan, but the Record Office is sure to have the 1890 OS.


    2. Who were the bodies?
    Methodists?
    Perhaps Roman Catholics, also.
    What religions used the term "Burial Ground".


    3. Where are the records for the 1973 exhumation and building work?
    They should exist.

    *I don't like to call them mass graves as they were not - the exhumation was a 'mass exhumation' - but the burials were just graves.
    As I earlier said, 3,000+ is not a huge number as 27,000+ were buried in St John's in just 20 years.

  15. #225
    Keeping It Real !!!!!!!!! ItsaZappathing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortinian View Post
    There has been a lot written about these graves and their discovery.* I do not wish to re-tread old ground so I have compiled a list of questions that I feel are not answered.
    We can be fairly certain that they were buried between 1842 and 1906 but:

    1. When exactly were they buried

    2. Who were the bodies?

    3. Where are the records for the 1973 exhumation and building work?

    *I don't like to call them mass graves as they were not - the exhumation was a 'mass exhumation' - but the burials were just graves.
    Nice one Fortinian.
    I too am interested to see those answers.

  16. #226
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    Ordinance survey maps are searchable at this site :-
    http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html
    Type Old Swan into the search box, then choose your map and click on "enlarge map".

  17. #227
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    I've yet to see a record of any burials during the ownership of the land by the Wesleyan Methodists. I've looked in the usual places online. If anyone can confirm any, please say so.
    On the 1851 map the only grave yard (marked Gr Yd) is on St Oswalds land.

  18. #228
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    This is a interesting site -
    http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects....poolrcburials/
    11,000 burials by St Oswalds church in just a few years. Bodies brought from all over Liverpool for burial. They must have stacked them sixteen deep.
    By all accounts this was a very large number of burials in a very small area. Well marked on at least one map.
    Loads of rubbish has been written about the exhumation of the site, its location and the state of the corpses.
    A very accurate, well researched account of the exhumation is on the "Old Swan" site, the article is produced by fortinian.
    The thirty year closure of Home Office files has now passed, so historians should be able to access Home office records.

  19. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
    This is a interesting site -
    http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects....poolrcburials/
    11,000 burials by St Oswalds church in just a few years. Bodies brought from all over Liverpool for burial. They must have stacked them sixteen deep.
    By all accounts this was a very large number of burials in a very small area. Well marked on at least one map.
    Loads of rubbish has been written about the exhumation of the site, its location and the state of the corpses.
    A very accurate, well researched account of the exhumation is on the "Old Swan" site, the article is produced by fortinian.
    The thirty year closure of Home Office files has now passed, so historians should be able to access Home office records.
    Sorry - double post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
    This is a interesting site -
    http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects....poolrcburials/
    11,000 burials by St Oswalds church in just a few years. Bodies brought from all over Liverpool for burial. They must have stacked them sixteen deep.
    By all accounts this was a very large number of burials in a very small area. Well marked on at least one map.
    Loads of rubbish has been written about the exhumation of the site, its location and the state of the corpses.
    A very accurate, well researched account of the exhumation is on the "Old Swan" site, the article is produced by fortinian.
    The thirty year closure of Home Office files has now passed, so historians should be able to access Home office records.
    Thanx a bunch for this.
    Good work and good find. Well done Hutch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
    This is a interesting site -
    http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects....poolrcburials/
    11,000 burials by St Oswalds church in just a few years. Bodies brought from all over Liverpool for burial. They must have stacked them sixteen deep.
    By all accounts this was a very large number of burials in a very small area. Well marked on at least one map.
    Loads of rubbish has been written about the exhumation of the site, its location and the state of the corpses.
    A very accurate, well researched account of the exhumation is on the "Old Swan" site, the article is produced by fortinian.
    The thirty year closure of Home Office files has now passed, so historians should be able to access Home office records.
    Thanks very much for this.
    It seems to be the conclusive answer.
    I've now seen the 1890 OS map, and the smaller burial ground (facing Mill Lane) did not exist, so the earliest that was added was in the 1890s.
    We know that all the burial grounds became disused sometime between 1906 and 1925.
    It'll be interesting to find out how the sites are described on post WW2 maps.

    Fans of Tom Slemen will be disappointed.

  22. #232
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    [QUOTE=PhilipG;321069]
    It'll be interesting to find out how the sites are described on post WW2 maps.[QUOTE]


    I've seen the 1949 OS map and they are marked as "Burial Grounds (Dis)", which proves that they never were a mystery.

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    i got talking to my nan earlier today about durning road school and she was telling me about going past the school as it would have been packed and running to the littlewoods shelter, which was lucky, and out of the blue she said "your great grandad worked on the mass burial site that your looking into for your site" so natuarally i have asked her to try and remember as much as possible and jot it down for me to post on here,
    as for mass burial graves, does anyone know of any difinitve plague pits or the likes in liverpool ? it would be really interesting!!!
    lets keep this one alive !!!!

  24. #234
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    Hi moe, I think I mentioned a couple of plagues early on in the thread. Liverpool had 2 in quci succession and fever huts were placed along sickmans lane with a red or black cross on them. That many died that the lane was renamed deadmans lane. Later on it became a densely populated residential street called Addison street of Byrom street where Fontenoy Gardens was and is still there in part now but partly pedestrianised by St Stephens place.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Hey Ged,
    Thanks for the reply, i think that it's one of those things that is intriguing to me, my bro and pops (dad ) are both on the brick and have been for as long as i remember, and they both worked on the big L1 job and i have asked them about anything found when the footings were all being dug, and they didnt see anything of interest, but they did say that human remains were rumoured to have been found, a single body as far as they said, but it could have just been a rumour spread on the site, now back in the plague days i assume that liverpool was the seven streets, which would have put plague pits outside the town boundaries. now if theres a definate number of plague victim's out there in liverpool, then it can be gagued on a rough number of pits.
    ok ramble over
    P.S, our good mate slemen has estimated 75 mass burial graves in liverpool

  26. #236
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    If any bodies were found during the Liverpool ONE dig i'm sure they would be in the full archeology report carried out by Oxford Archeology North.

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    That's the thing with rumors , they usually ammount to nonsense

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Philip and Stan

    Ken Williams, the retired principal environmental health office who was in charge of disposing of the bodies, states that it was 1973 that the remains were first discovered, so there is no doubt about the year. See

    http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...5&postcount=15

    Chris
    There were graves discovered and exhumed in 1973 but only on part of the site. The work was left for several years and further graves were found when it re-commenced which would account for people remembering the incident as being later than 1973. This is all explained in Derek Whales Lost Villages Of Liverpool. It always helps to consider first hand experience instead of discounting it if it doesn't fit in with previous statements.

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