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Thread: Mass Grave in Old Swan

  1. #61
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloyne View Post
    I understand Enid Blyton wrote good childrens fiction too. Do you think women are better at this sort of fiction?
    J K Rowling's doing quite well for herself.
    She only called herself that so people wouldn't know what sex she was.

    Oops, we've strayed off-topic.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    J K Rowling's doing quite well for herself.
    She only called herself that so people wouldn't know what sex she was.
    Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

    Chris
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  3. #63
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

    Chris
    Chris.

    She said so herself in an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

    Chris
    Does anyone know if there's any truth in the story that a great rival of T S Eliots said in a radio interview "dont you realise that T S Eliot is almost TOILET backwards". I've always wondered if its genuine or something our English teacher made up to try and liven up a lesson.

  5. #65
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    But wasn't PhillipG trying a bit of a wind-up? But yes, we have strayed a bit off topic.

  6. #66
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloyne View Post
    But wasn't PhillipG trying a bit of a wind-up? But yes, we have strayed a bit off topic.
    No, it wasn't a wind-up.
    Just a response.

    Anyway, back on topic.
    Some of the graves were dated 1859, but as far as I can make out the closest epidemic was cholera in the summer of 1849.
    So, it's still a mystery.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    As if!

    Really.
    Some people.

    Etc., etc.

    Presumably the Irish Famine victims died in Ireland and were buried there.
    Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.
    But not beyond the realm of posibility when you consider Britain was the originator of concentration camps. But I think it implausible for the reasons given above. However, thousands of famine victims died, not just enroute, but in places like the quarantine station at Grosse Ile, QC., Canada. In 1847, 50 ships arrived from Liverpool filled to the gun'nels with Irish famine victims who were discharged at Grosse Ile in the St. Lawrence River. That same year 5,424 people died of various deseases, but mainly typhus, at the quarantine station.

    Liverpool, the largest port for transportation of Irish famine victims to the colonies, sometimes picked up victims at Irish west coast ports and transported them to Liverpool, with some voyagers taking between two and four weeks, depending on weather and winds. Those passengers were landed in Liverpool in various stages of ill health, then transported to quarantine camps outside the Liverpool municipal boundry. Could this gravesite be on one of those ancient camp sites?

    Canada, Australia and the USA have elevated thier quarantime camps to National Historic Site status. It would be very understandable for the UK, given the "Irish Troubles" of the passed 4 decades, to want to keep such a site, as a concentration camp for famine victims, quiet. However, nothing of this magnatude can remain hidden for ever and, just like the Sarpedan affair after WW11, truth will, eventualy, out.
    Last edited by Sloyne; 01-21-2007 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.
    Has anyone ever wondered where these starving, pennyless Irish peasants got the money to pay for passage to Canada, Australia or the USA?

    Irish emigration during the famine was NOT entirely voluntary. When the British parliament passed the law making landlords responsible, through taxation, for their starving, destitute tennants, they (landlords) found it cheaper to charter ships and dispose of their charges by shipping them abroad. And just who would refuse to go when they were starving in their homeland? So, for all intents and purposes the emigration of Irish famine victims, in the vast majority, amounted to forced transportation.

  9. #69
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    Further to the above and with reference to todays BBC news concerning RUC and Special Branch collussion in the murders, by "Loyalist" para-militaries in Northern Ireland, of a number of catholics. One can readilly see why the UK government would want to keep a grave site, containing thousands of Irish famine victims, very quiet.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloyne View Post
    Further to the above and with reference to todays BBC news concerning RUC and Special Branch collussion in the murders, by "Loyalist" para-militaries in Northern Ireland, of a number of catholics. One can readilly see why the UK government would want to keep a grave site, containing thousands of Irish famine victims, very quiet.
    Except that it is by no means proven that the bodies discovered in Old Swan were Irish famine victims. It would seem to me to be wild and irresponsible speculation to assume the bodies were those of Irish famine victims disposed of by the British government.

    Chris
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Except that it is by no means proven that the bodies discovered in Old Swan were Irish famine victims. It would seem to me to be wild and irresponsible speculation to assume the bodies were those of Irish famine victims disposed of by the British government
    Yes, your right, I should have made myself clearer and included the word "IF" in my submission.

  12. #72
    Gnomie
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    I think the Irish would have chosen to stay in their homeland and be fed rather than be shipped all over the world. my ancestors came over in the 1840`s from Dublin,Mayo and Roscommon. they lived in and survived the courts of Vauxhall.

    As for the mass grave in Old Swan . there are rumoured to be a number of sites around the city containing Irish. They called it the Irish Holocaust. nothing connects them to Old Swan, its just another suggestion. Funny thing i heard once in the Red House pub in the 1980`s . an old fella was talking about the graves and swore blind it was Canadian Soldiers in there? ive never heard anything on this mind? maybe to much beer

    mind you read this. Canadian!!! Old Swan!!!!

    http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=37876


    Really i doubt we will ever find out

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomie View Post
    I think the Irish would have chosen to stay in their homeland and be fed rather than be shipped all over the world.
    Goes without saying. My ancestors also arrived in the mid eighteen hundreds escaping deprivation and starvation. And they settled in what is now known as Vauxhall. According to stories told by my granddad Fitz (Fitzpatrick), the English were less than welcoming and treated the Irish like lepers. He too told stories of Irish immigrants being kept aboard ships in the river then landed at night and herded through deserted streets to the outskirts to, presumably, camps. He told me a story of renting a house for himself and his new bride, Mary Anne O'Brien, at the top of Rose Vale, Everton, and having the house dowsed in parafin oil, by religious bigots, and set ablaze while they slept. They escaped with thier lives and nothing else. He would say; "They made a bonfire of our few little pieces and sticks, just because we were Irish and catholic".
    Last edited by Sloyne; 01-22-2007 at 03:45 PM.

  14. #74
    Gnomie
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    Thats a sad story Sloyne. it must have been horrible to be Irish back then.

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    It is in fact true and recorded that many who came to the inner city liverpool from Ireland and in particular the Scottie road area did die of their illnesses and in fact if you check out the grounds and crypt of St. Anthony's - over 2,300 are buried there.

    I also have an history dvd with Cliff Hayes, Historian and author of a couple of Liverpool books being interviewed throughout it, saying that the Liverpool authorities were actively paying ship captains to discharge the Irish emigrants at Anglesey as Liverpool was getting beyond the bounds of coping with the influx.

  16. #76
    Gerard
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    Was at my Cousin's Christening yesterday at St Oswalds Old Swan for the latest arrival of the O'Shea clan...
    Tim O'shea was my uncle being married to my Mams sister and arrived here from Cork pennyless..He built up a Civil Engineering firm and at one time or another Every Liverpool Irishman must have worked for him pulling the big Cables from BICC in Prescot..and Quite a lot of Scousers as well..Yours truly included..The Perfect Gentleman..

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomie View Post
    Thats a sad story Sloyne. it must have been horrible to be Irish back then.
    I most likely know your family, me having grown up in 13 Rose Place right facing Comus Street. I knew a Mr. Tim Hogan who married one of the McMullen women and I think, listening to me mam, her best mate, Dolly Hickey, was courting a Christy Hogan before marrying into the McMullen's, I forget whether it was to Dan or Pat McMullen.

  18. #78
    Gnomie
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    Hi Sloyne

    I only know the brothers and sisters for my grandfather.

    and the sister and brother of my great grandfather.

    all from comus street and surrunding area. im sure they had cousins so these hogans sre interesting as they are in the same place.

    cheers mate

    Tony

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    "...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

    Fascinating stuff- but why bother going to the trouble and expense of providing coffins?
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhowe View Post
    "...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

    Fascinating stuff- but why bother going to the trouble and expense of providing coffins?
    Hi Steve

    You're right. The story that Tom Slemen and Keith Andrews are promulgating doesn't quite add up.

    Chris
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  21. #81
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    my granddad's corner shop was built right on top of this mass grave.
    we believe the shop was built around 1905 and was called Mickasey's corner shop but most knew the shop as just 'Micks'
    The shop was demolished before work started on project Orchid in 1973,my mother has always been interested in the subject as she was brought up and lived in the shop.

    Below is a link to a scan from the Liverpool Echo 1996 with some information and a map marking the location of the grave and my granddad's shop,hope this is some use to anyone researching the graves.

    warning its a full scan (3.3mb) but you can read everything.


    http://bevysworld.bulldoghome.com/ph...m/Pict0004.JPG

    I know Its a long shot but if anyone has a picture of the shop my family would love to see it as we have lost any pictures we had.

    My mother and Uncle also have some very strange stories about hooded figures they used to see as children, but that's another story.

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    Hiya Bevy. Give Tom Slemen a ring and we'll look forward to seeing the 'hooded figures of Old Swan' in Haunted Liverpool 79.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  23. #83
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    BUT - Don't tell Steve Faragher
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  24. #84
    Cadfael
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bevy View Post
    my granddad's corner shop was built right on top of this mass grave.
    we believe the shop was built around 1905 and was called Mickasey's corner shop but most knew the shop as just 'Micks'
    The shop was demolished before work started on project Orchid in 1973,my mother has always been interested in the subject as she was brought up and lived in the shop.

    Below is a link to a scan from the Liverpool Echo 1996 with some information and a map marking the location of the grave and my granddad's shop,hope this is some use to anyone researching the graves.

    warning its a full scan (3.3mb) but you can read everything.


    http://bevysworld.bulldoghome.com/ph...m/Pict0004.JPG

    I know Its a long shot but if anyone has a picture of the shop my family would love to see it as we have lost any pictures we had.

    My mother and Uncle also have some very strange stories about hooded figures they used to see as children, but that's another story.
    An excellent scan! Cheers

  25. #85
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    Default Over Egging the Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I've found the source.
    It was Derek Whale's "Lost Villages of Liverpool" Part 1 (1984).

    The graves were first discovered in April 1973, so a trawl through the newspapers at the Record Office might reveal contemporary accounts.
    Looks like Tom has overegged the story here to, "wood that wouldnt burn" and Government cover up, too many X-files makes Tom a dull boy

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    Default mass graves

    can some one tell me exactly where they where i went to school in old swan
    (st agnes ) 1973 i started there and i dont remember any one talking about mass graves you know what kids are like. where they any where near that school?
    debbie

  27. #87
    MarkA
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    On the site of Saint Oswald's Infant School directly opposite Tesco's

  28. #88
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    Yes, there's a map pinpointing the site in Message 81 by Bevy.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    This has been an interesting thread. It must have been horrendous finding them! Never heard of 'wood that doesn't burn' in my life, weird!
    Life is what you make it

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    Default mass graves

    it all sounds a bit weird and far fetched, wood that would,nt burn, some coffins with dates on, all buried in age groups, mostly young i think i read,
    and if they where from other cemetary.s how the hell would they move them?
    especially in them days. (horse and cart ) you would need a least a hundred of them. any way im sure if it was genocide or something to that evect would,nt someone have picked up on it and written about it or stumbled on it years ago.

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