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Thread: The Vines, Lime St-Tunnels

  1. #1
    MissInformed
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    Default The Vines, Lime St-Tunnels

    Hi
    I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
    It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??


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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    Hi
    I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
    It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??
    Hello MissInformed

    These rumors of smugglers tunnels seem to be just that, local legend and lore, like the smugglers tunnels that were said to extend from Mother Redcap's at Egremont under Wallasey to the Red Noses near New Brighton. As with the distance between Lime Street and the Mersey, these are both considerable distances, so my hunch is that such tunnels never existed.

    Chris
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  3. #3
    PhilipG
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    And of course, Lime Street was at the edge of town in the early days.

  4. #4
    theninesisters
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    Been down under the Vines a few years ago, they're all blocked up now although they did once go through town down to the Docks. We had a good nose around but there wasn't a sniff of anything we could accidently knock down to gain access to more tunnels.
    Last edited by theninesisters; 03-23-2007 at 06:59 PM.

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    MissInformed
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    wow! fantastic pics jona!!!!!!!

    thank you for proving me right!!!

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    Yes fantastic snaps, exciting stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    Been down under the Vines a few years ago, they're all blocked up now although they did once go through town down to the Docks. We had a good nose around but there wasn't a sniff of anything we could accidently knock down to gain access to more tunnels.
    I don't believe they went to the docks at all. It is too far. If they did where would they emerge at the docks, in the docks estate? The docks were built on wooden piles into the river. It was more like they were storage tunnels - a part of the cellar.
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  8. #8
    MissInformed
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    if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

    i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

    oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

    i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?
    Forget tunnels to the docks.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

  10. #10
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

    i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

    oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??
    Cellars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

    i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

    oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??
    Cellars or storage. Too far to reach the docks, and as Waterways said, where did the tunnels come out?
    Christopher T. George
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  12. #12
    MissInformed
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    but....just because we don't know about these things, doesn't mean they don't exist guys.....

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    That's why is so interesting and intriguing
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  14. #14
    theninesisters
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    When I last went, the only 'recent' addition was a bricked up wall - but we're talking possibly of about 100 years ago. We took a brick out and looked through and it was filled with rubble in a slope. It would indicate steps of some sort leading down but this appeared to be in the direction of Renshaw street rather than directly towards the River. Though it may have adjoined a set of tunnels at another point in which access to the River could have been gained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    When I last went, the only 'recent' addition was a bricked up wall - but we're talking possibly of about 100 years ago. We took a brick out and looked through and it was filled with rubble in a slope. It would indicate steps of some sort leading down but this appeared to be in the direction of Renshaw street rather than directly towards the River. Though it may have adjoined a set of tunnels at another point in which access to the River could have been gained.
    Okay, but you can't assume they connect to the river if you don't have proof that they did. You can't assume that they were used by smugglers without the proof that they were so used either.

    Chris
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  16. #16
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    Hi
    I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
    It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??
    I've got all 4 volumes of "A Pub on Every Corner".
    The City Centre is Volume 1, but what page should I go to?

  17. #17
    theninesisters
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    You can't assume that they were used by smugglers without the proof that they were so used either.
    I've never once mentioned anything about smugglers in any of my postings on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    I've never once mentioned anything about smugglers in any of my postings on this.
    Hello Jona76

    Yes okay, thanks for clarifying. It was MissInformed who brought up the fact that Freddy O'Connor claims the tunnels were used for smuggling, and that the tunnels connected with the river.

    Chris
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    I heard there was a tunnel from the Adelphi to the docks for rich travellers to use. Sounds a bit far-fetched though...

  20. #20
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by snappel View Post
    I heard there was a tunnel from the Adelphi to the docks for rich travellers to use. Sounds a bit far-fetched though...
    I don't think the rich travellers would have appreciated being taken by tunnel to the Adelphi.
    Riverside Station was built for them, and they would have been transported by cabs or carriages through the streets.

  21. #21
    MissInformed
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I've got all 4 volumes of "A Pub on Every Corner".
    The City Centre is Volume 1, but what page should I go to?

    hi philip
    it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

    "In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

    Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!

  22. #22
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    hi philip
    it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

    "In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

    Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!
    Thanks for that.
    Did you see Chris's view of Freddy O'Connor?
    Having written a book myself, I wouldn't comment on another author, for fear I'd get my book criticised.

  23. #23
    MissInformed
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    Hi Philip
    I did read Chris' view....each to their own view, but in my personal view, I think Freddy O Connor has done great things for this city with his work, and hope he continues to do so!

    what is your book called again?

  24. #24
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    hi philip
    it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

    "In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

    Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!
    Hi MissInformed

    I don't have Freddy O'Connor's series of books on Liverpool pubs. I do have his Liverpool Our City Our Heritage published in 1990, which has a lot in it about pubs as well although I have not noticed this particular story in it. By the way, I am an author myself, of a War of 1812 history book, and while as does Philip, I do honor anyone who can put out a book -- and there is no doubt Mr O'Connor's books have much interest -- I do think unsubstantiated statements made about history need to be challenged. There are facts and there are half truths and there are legends. Unfortunately a lot of reported history is not true and is just plain myth, so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.

    Chris
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  25. #25
    MissInformed
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    Hi Chris
    I do understand what you are saying, yet, I think Freddy has shirked his belief in the tunnels by using the word 'reputedly'.
    These tunnels may not lead to the river, but there are tunnels (as proven by jona), and I am pleased I put up this thread now, as I didn't know this time yesterday that ANY tunnels existed under the Vines!!

  26. #26
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    Hi Philip
    I did read Chris' view....each to their own view, but in my personal view, I think Freddy O Connor has done great things for this city with his work, and hope he continues to do so!

    what is your book called again?
    A Tram Ride to Dingle.

  27. #27
    MissInformed
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    That is one of mine and my boyfriends fave books Philip!

    It is the most referred to one in our house!

    Have you written any more?

  28. #28
    theninesisters
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    so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.
    I've known Freddie for about 6 years as he's a fellow committee member of the Williamson Tunnels and he knows his stuff. While I can't comment on what he wrote was fact or not, I do know that when visiting the place, it wasn't just a single tunnel or cellar system - it was huge with passages going off in all directions. Underground is easily as big as the footprint of the building and there were many arches and doors that were all explored. Although I do not know whether these ever led anywhere, it was a maze down there and it had to be used for something rather than an elaborate cellar system for a pub. I'll see if the same contact is there as we used last and try and get another visit and make a good plan of the system.

  29. #29
    MissInformed
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    Thanks Jona.
    Let us know! Keep us updated.

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    Hi Jona76:

    Okay, thank you, Jona76, that would be useful. Obviously, I don't mind any author making a statement if it's true. But if an author of a history book makes a statement that is not backed up it deserves to be challenged. That's the nature of historical enquiry, the way we get at the truth of what actually happened in the past.

    Now, I have no doubt Mr. O'Connor knows about the physical pubs that are still there and that have now gone and no doubt that you are right that there are passages below the Vines. The question is whether they actually did go down to the River and whether they were, as Mr. O'Connor claims, used for smuggling.

    Thanks

    Chris
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    Editor, Loch Raven Review
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