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Thread: Gardens, Tenements and Courts

  1. #31
    MissInformed
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    does anyone have any pics of Copperfield Street, L8?
    No longer there. It is Copperfield Close now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by snappel View Post
    T

    Someone told me there were once tenements like this where the Old Swan Tesco superstore is too...
    Yes, here's what they looked like:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_and_h/125068853/

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayjaykay View Post
    Yes, here's what they looked like:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_and_h/125068853/
    Great photos.
    I loved Old Swan because it was unspoilt and everything was still there.
    Now a big chunk of it is a car-park!

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    Default Old Swan.

    Does anyone remember that when they were demolishing the opposite side of St. Oswalds street, they came across a mass grave site. My mate lived in Elm's House Road so I was forever getting the number 10 in Norton Street. I was born in Holly Street, the flats similar to Eldon Grove and later moved to Gerard Gardens when Holly Street had to make way for the new St. Anne Street Police station. I loved that community and era - no playstations or X boxes, no interacting via a joystick, screen or keyboard - proper face to face games. Does anyone have any photos of Rose Hill Police station which preceded St. Anne Street station?

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    Here's a couple of photos from my Flickr set I've recently re-scanned, PhilipG thinks they may be Kent Gardens. I can't find "Kent Square" in my A-Z but I suspect this was somewhere by Kent St, south of Duke St, am I correct? I used to walk around this area fairly often as a student, fascinated by the decay and especially the housing projects (we had nothing like these at home). These two pictures were actually taken in April 1989. I'm assuming these were demolished? They looked not long for the world in these shots.




  6. #36
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    In Tom Sleman's Strange Liverpool he claims that the Old Swan bodies may have been moved from St Johns graveyard when the foundations St Georges Hall were laid in 1838

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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy o. View Post



    There's a mini in that pic at the graffiti - nowt changes does it?
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    Tenements at Bevington Street:
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  9. #39
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy o. View Post
    Here's a couple of photos from my Flickr set I've recently re-scanned, PhilipG thinks they may be Kent Gardens. I can't find "Kent Square" in my A-Z but I suspect this was somewhere by Kent St, south of Duke St, am I correct? I used to walk around this area fairly often as a student, fascinated by the decay and especially the housing projects (we had nothing like these at home). These two pictures were actually taken in April 1989. I'm assuming these were demolished? They looked not long for the world in these shots.



    Yes, they are Kent Gardens.
    Here's 2 more.
    The wide view is from 1986 - note the washing.
    The other is 1990, when it was demolished.
    It was south of Duke Street, being bounded by Lydia Ann St., Kent St., Pitt & Gilbert Streets.
    The blocks were built in 1938 on the site of Kent Square and the Phoenix Foundry, and provided 90 "units" (as they were called).
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    Last edited by PhilipG; 12-12-2006 at 09:56 PM.

  10. #40
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    In my research on the tennies, it got that way that they could be individually recognised from one another. See if any of you can guess where these ones were? I think i've learnt how to upload pics anyway.

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    No I haven't, i'll try again tomoz.

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    Thanks for the photos Philip, and the info. Amazing. I remember a visit in '87 where my friend and I were walking around this area at night (why, I'm not sure) and there were some bonfires going in the square (or plaza, or whatever you call it), and it felt like the end of the world. The big empty paved spaces in these bullrings really make it feel so alien. I will have to track down your books, Ged, the subject matter is something that interests me quite a bit.

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    Thanks Nancy. Your pics are great, saw them all only a few months ago. This is the pic I was trying to upload earlier.
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    RE: Pics and submitions: Please read here
    Liverpool in Pictures/ YO! Liverpool has taken me over 10 years to develop and maintain.

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  15. #45
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    Oh sorry, that's alright Kev. This pic was supplied to me by Ron Formby of the Scottie Press who has given permission to me to use in my book (though I have yet to) so it's his copyright.

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    Kent Gardens was always pretty grim. I remember some graffiti below one of the higher windows... 'T REX' in white paint. It was visible from Park Lane for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy o. View Post
    Here's a couple of photos from my Flickr set I've recently re-scanned, PhilipG thinks they may be Kent Gardens. I can't find "Kent Square" in my A-Z but I suspect this was somewhere by Kent St, south of Duke St, am I correct? I used to walk around this area fairly often as a student, fascinated by the decay and especially the housing projects (we had nothing like these at home).
    Try Chicago. Not quite the same in style but in function, yes. When I was there the painters had to wear bullet-proof vests in the "projects". One was painting the windows outside on the 5th floor and someone from the windows opposite shot him for fun.

    These two pictures were actually taken in April 1989. I'm assuming these were demolished? They looked not long for the world in these shots.



    The squares had large air raid shelters in them during WW2 and left there for decades after. They were very thick brick walls and 18" thick reinforced concrete flat roofs. After the war they were used as storage. I used to run on the roofs and jump from shelter to shelter.

    One in Kings Gardens took a direct hit and many people were killed.

    Opposite Kent Gardens was where Fawcett Preston was. They made the gun that fired the first shot in the US Civil War. The North and the South used their cannons. The CCS Alabama, built at Lairds in Birkenhead, was sunk off Cherburg by USS Kersarge using Fawcett Preson cannons.

    http://www.csnavy.org/weapons/cannons.htm
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    Also a direct hit on the air raid shelter in Blackstock Gardens kiling many local residents and even a passing tram load of commuters who took shelter there (see Scottie press site)

    I have a blitz photo featuring bombed out premises across the road from Myrtle Gardens too.

    I don't agree that lots of these blocks couldn't have been saved and made energy efficient. Roads became more important than keeping communities together and when you think of the petitions of Gerard, Fontenoy, Lawrence, King Gardens to name but a few to stave off demolition and the raping of some of these areas, it only goes to show that they were revered in the 70s and only a deliberate council policy to run them down in the next decade tolled their death knoll.

    Even worse is that some of these were demolished only for the land to be left deserted as in Chaucer House, The four squares, Birkett Street. Given that city centre high rise seems to be back in vogue and the refurbishment of the Bullring and part of Myrtle Gardens, again, to name but a few, more should have been done to keep these iconic structures.

  19. #49
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Also a direct hit on the air raid shelter in Blackstock Gardens kiling many local residents and even a passing tram load of commuters who took shelter there (see Scottie press site)

    I have a blitz photo featuring bombed out premises across the road from Myrtle Gardens too.

    I don't agree that lots of these blocks couldn't have been saved and made energy efficient. Roads became more important than keeping communities together and when you think of the petitions of Gerard, Fontenoy, Lawrence, King Gardens to name but a few to stave off demolition and the raping of some of these areas, it only goes to show that they were revered in the 70s and only a deliberate council policy to run them down in the next decade tolled their death knoll.

    Even worse is that some of these were demolished only for the land to be left deserted as in Chaucer House, The four squares, Birkett Street. Given that city centre high rise seems to be back in vogue and the refurbishment of the Bullring and part of Myrtle Gardens, again, to name but a few, more should have been done to keep these iconic structures.
    It was cheaper to raze them and start afresh. They could never reach modern insulation standards and now insulation has to be 1 foot thick in the loft. These structure would have spiralled the poor who lived in them into fuel poverty - energy has risen approx 30% in the past few years.

    I recall, Caryl, Warwick and Brunswick Gardens virtually ran into each other. All Concrete and no gardens to be seen. Caryl Gardens had art deco trimmings. Caryl Gardens was OK to live in, some of my friends lived there. Very tidy and clean. No problems.

    They were cheap emergency homes to get people out of the courts, which were built by slave traders after slavery was banned. And also a means of getting people employed in the depression - government led construction projects. They served their purpose - an interim measure. I for one will not mourn their passing. Of course the odd one has been kept to remind us all what they were like.
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    A new space age foil type insulation which is mm thick but holds the same qualities as inches thick insulation was used in the Gt. Richmond Street flats, now called St. Anne Apartment. Furthermore I know a young professional who lives in one and visited a number of times early last year (winter time)and it seemed alright to me and does to him. Together with central heating (remembering that the 1950s flats that followed are still well occupied with similar insulations regs) and bearing in mind there are many older houses still in mass occupation with residents battling to keep them so, I don't think this is a good excuse or in fact the reason why they were razed.

    Blocks currently exist in Tuebrook, Club Moor, Wavertree, Toxteth, Old Swan, Vauxhall and China Town as well as the few recently mentioned. With the inner courts tidied up as in the Bullring situation, I and many more believe they captured a communinty spirit that has gone forever resulting in a great loss to the city. I only have to look at the attendances at the screening of 'Gardens of Stone' to realise this. Many of the older generations harked back to when they could stand chatting on the landing for ages and not having to wait hours or days before they see their next door neighbour and some of these who were put into houses with gardens just couldn't manage them.

    I agree times, building regs and expectations have moved on though and maybe we can tell our kids they've never had it so good but does it do any good for some?

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    This is a model I made of the Gerard Gardens development, together with Gerard Crescent and accompanying blocks which is shown whenever there is a Gardens of Stone screening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    A new space age foil type insulation which is mm thick but holds the same qualities as inches thick insulation was used in the Gt. Richmond Street flats, now called St. Anne Apartment.
    Radiant barriers. A sham., They have now been taken off the approved list and building inspectors will no loger approve them.

    Furthermore I know a young professional who lives in one and visited a number of times early last year (winter time)and it seemed alright to me and does to him. Together with central heating (remembering that the 1950s flats that followed are still well occupied with similar insulations regs)
    Two wrongs don't make a right. The thermal qualities of mainly solid walled flats are dire.

    and bearing in mind there are many older houses still in mass occupation with residents battling to keep them so, I don't think this is a good excuse or in fact the reason why they were razed.
    The UK has the oldest housing stock in the western world. This came about because of the poor planning laws and 0.66% of the population owning 70% of the land. See http://www.saveliverpooldocks.so.uk Go to the land article in the menu.

    This old housing stock has meant UK home emit far more CO2 than Germany, France, etc. Also with poorly insulated homes the poor always suffer because of fuel poverty. Cold and damp homes amount to many health problems too.

    Look up the post on this forum about the Welsh Streets and how one side of the coin was not reported - the Welsh streets were being used as a political tool. Most want out - demolition.

    Blocks currently exist in Tuebrook, Club Moor, Wavertree, Toxteth, Old Swan, Vauxhall and China Town as well as the few recently mentioned. With the inner courts tidied up as in the Bullring situation, I and many more believe they captured a communinty spirit that has gone forever resulting in a great loss to the city.
    Community spirit? Some were hell holes. I lived near them. Flats never created community spirit worth talking about.

    I only have to look at the attendances at the screening of 'Gardens of Stone' to realise this. Many of the older generations harked back to when they could stand chatting on the landing for ages and not having to wait hours or days before they see their next door neighbour and some of these who were put into houses with gardens just couldn't manage them.
    Nostaliga. That all that is. Those flats had little community spirit at all. The terraced streets had more.

    I agree times, building regs and expectations have moved on though and maybe we can tell our kids they've never had it so good but does it do any good for some?
    Some people will always want to remain in the past. I pity them.
    Last edited by Waterways; 12-14-2006 at 05:06 PM.
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    Everyone to their own eh waterways, but having lived in them, played in and grew up in them and since spoken to people who didn't want to move from them, hence the petitions and the likes of the Eldonians demanding the community be kept intact, I beg to differ that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Everyone to their own eh waterways, but having lived in them, played in and grew up in them and since spoken to people who didn't want to move from them, hence the petitions and the likes of the Eldonians demanding the community be kept intact, I beg to differ that's all.
    We will have to agree to disagree. As to keeping the community together, other flats have been demolished the people moved to adjacent new homes with proper modern insulation, sense of space and all the rest. If its the community they are want to keep intact the case for keeping these enviromentally poor structures is poor indeed. Few few of them were visually attractive either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayjaykay View Post
    Yes, here's what they looked like:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_and_h/125068853/
    The flats/shops in St Oswald Street, Old Swan also appeared in the film 'The 51st State' before they were demolished. You can see them in the 4th and 6th photos here: http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/...irst/index.htm

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    Further to some earlier comments on this thread about building regulations, I happened to mention this site, and in particular this thread to a couple of building mates of mine last night. It appears there is some misinformation.

    One of them worked on the adaption of Portland Gardens to houses and some of the block to sheltered accommodation. Current building regulations including heat retention and damp prevention have to be adhered to by law. The other one is actually working on a building right now that is using the new thin lined thermal foil and has invited me to photograph it in use before it is hidden if I want.

    To say these tenements were going from slums to slums is also incorrect. See the 1938 Corporation/Gas Works film 'Homes for workers' to see that this new type of housing with hot and cold running water, indoor toilets (which some people in the 1970s were not even afforded) and electricity as well as gas were far in advance of what many many people were experiencing. The fact that there were verandas, internal coutyards for children to play away from the street and simple things like laundry hanging facilities were much more luxurious than what had gone before.

    Previous to this Dr. Duncan had condemned the insanitary properties, many of them windowless cellar poperties with up to 10 persons per room as true hell holes which caused typhus and cholera amongst other things. Life expectancy had trebled by the time these tenements were well into habitation.

    The jewel in Sir Lancelot Keay's crown was Gerard Gardens, hence the statue of himself above one of the entrances by Herbert Tyson Smith. Having lived in both streets and tenements I feel able to give testimony that the community spirit built inside these, although probably a sign of the times amongst anything else, was a true reflection of what it was like living in them. Charabanc trips would be arranged, mammoth football matches between rival squares and games such as kick the can and alallio within the confined of the square and the bonfire nights were legendary, not like trying to find the nearest oller as in the streets kids - see the interviews in the film Gardens of Stone. It is also true that this type of living caused a close knit community and in particular News years eve parties whereby you would go along the landing from door to door were a yearly delight.

    There is no doubt that at the end of their lifespan, the councils plan was to let them become run down so that they could put them out of their misery but we've also seen how this can be done with houses too (The Boswell and Boot estates spring to mind) We cannot demolish houses or flats on the basis of thinking that the thermal qualities are not upgradeable otherwise we would lose the Victorian, Edwardian and Georgian splendours of the city. Think of Dave's photograph of Canning Street - let's demolished them? How about the fantastic buildings mentioned on the other thread that we've lost that were built of solid walls.

    I would suggest that it is the characterless sea of new red brick houses with paper thin walls thrown up in six weeks that are a blight on the landscape, though I do concede that this is obviously 'progress'.

    It's interesting to cite a friend of mine who worked at the Giro, full of people who live in Southport and Sefton. When my friend was asked where he was from and said Gerard Gardens, these people took a step back in fright as though he was the devil incarnate. It transpired that the perception of this square, only ever viewed from the Ribble bus was as a load of ruffians. We know differently of course and now it is laughed about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Further to some earlier comments on this thread about building regulations, I happened to mention this site, and in particular this thread to a couple of building mates of mine last night. It appears there is some misinformation.

    One of them worked on the adaption of Portland Gardens to houses and some of the block to sheltered accommodation. Current building regulations including heat retention and damp prevention have to be adhered to by law. The other one is actually working on a building right now that is using the new thin lined thermal foil and has invited me to photograph it in use before it is hidden if I want.
    See this post. Radiant barrier = multifoil, the thin layer foil youn are on about. TRADA, a private testing agency approved them in the UK, despite "never" having pased hot box test. Many are considering suing TRADA. The are suppsed to have a 25mm air gap in front of the foil. Few have it on installation. Even if they do it doesn't work. You may as well fit cooking foil.

    http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...e9f04bba04e5dc

    They are banned when used by themselves. There are a con with makers being prosecuted in the USA and the UK. Show the post to your mates. The way the stupid UK building laws work, if you got PP for radiant barriers before they were banned then you can fit them. Duh! I know.

    To say these tenements were going from slums to slums is also incorrect.
    What does that mean?

    See the 1938 Corporation/Gas Works film 'Homes for workers' to see that this new type of housing with hot and cold running water, indoor toilets (which some people in the 1970s were not even afforded) and electricity as well as gas were far in advance of what many many people were experiencing.
    Yep, they took them out of the courts and gave them the "internal" mod-cons of the time. But no gardens just bare tarmac or concrete. Done on the cheap, as to build proper garden suburbs costs a lot more.

    I remember going into Illchester Gardens, or Square, in Birkenhead (rough as hell - you never took a vehicle in there). Some old Irish fella on the ground floor had a donkey inside. I rang the council.

    In the 1930s, the joke about the people in the gardens was that they put the coal in the bath.

    The fact that there were verandas, internal coutyards for children to play away from the street and simple things like laundry hanging facilities were much more luxurious than what had gone before.
    You couldn't get much worse than the courts with 5 families sharing one toilet.

    I would suggest that it is the characterless sea of new red brick houses with paper thin walls thrown up in six weeks that are a blight on the landscape, though I do concede that this is obviously 'progress'.
    The above is highly subjective. The gardens were a clear visual blight. Appalling looking things. The new houses with their gardens and flowers are quite nice indeed and vast improvement on the hell holes that the gardens became.

    It's interesting to cite a friend of mine who worked at the Giro, full of people who live in Southport and Sefton. When my friend was asked where he was from and said Gerard Gardens, these people took a step back in fright as though he was the devil incarnate. It transpired that the perception of this square, only ever viewed from the Ribble bus was as a load of ruffians. We know differently of course and now it is laughed about.
    Some of the people in them were a bit on the rough side to say the least.

    We must go forwards without the burden of nostalgia. Decisions must be made with the brain, the hearts will follow on wherever we go.
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  28. #58
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Ha ha - I like the donkey bit.

    There were coal holes as you know so no need to put it in the bath.

    Bin chutes too - all mod cons eh.

    To think what came after them wasn't a great improvement. High rise with dodgy blow central heating and the cladding fell off the walls. Think of the piggeries - now they were hell holes and not as many ex residents look back on them in fondness. A novelty to view the city from above but as soon as the lifts broke.....

    How about the Radcliffe Estate in Everton or the Netherley flats on Brittage Brow - both lasting only a decade. Current estates such as the Easby in Kirkdale and the Grizedale off Robson Street - current hell hole mazes where even emergency vehicles can't get in.

    To say some of the people were on the rough side though, well many early on would have been the old slums people who were still pretty much still coming out of the barefoot street urchin era. There's rough people living in these 'gardened' houses right now, probably go home to it after dealing drugs on the street but i'm possibly generalising as much there as you seem to do

    Hurst Gardens that you mentioned were very ordinary compared to some, the lifts btw were installed in certain blocks meeting the requirements in 1950 and worked for not much more than a decade.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Ha ha - I like the donkey bit.

    There were coal holes as you know so no need to put it in the bath.
    So the tale went. The people in Garston said the same about those who went to Speke - envious I think.

    Bin chutes too - all mod cons eh.
    Yep. And they filled up very quickly and stunk on the lower floors.

    To think what came after them wasn't a great improvement. High rise with dodgy blow central heating
    What came after was the same but a different colour.

    Warm air heating is great, it is just that the British didn't do it well. It is the norm in the USA.

    and the cladding fell off the walls.
    In one or two, yes. Most, no.

    Think of the piggeries - now they were hell holes and not as many ex residents look back on them in fondness. A novelty to view the city from above but as soon as the lifts broke.....
    The high rises were poorly planned and the wrong people put in. No security and no concierge as the French and Germans, etc have.

    There were, and still are, some brilliant high rises in Liverpool. Many were needlessly demolished. Private companies could have done something good with them. The Piggeries is the worse of the bunch, however people forget the best.

    How about the Radcliffe Estate in Everton or the Netherley flats on Brittage Brow - both lasting only a decade. Current estates such as the Easby in Kirkdale and the Grizedale off Robson Street - current hell hole mazes where even emergency vehicles can't get in.
    Poorly planned. No security. There was no need to build Netherley flats as there were fields all around them to spead onto - oh that green belt again, that was supposed to impove our lives and never.

    To say some of the people were on the rough side though, well many early on would have been the old slums people who were still pretty much still coming out of the barefoot street urchin era. There's rough people living in these 'gardened' houses right now, probably go home to it after dealing drugs on the street but i'm possibly generalising as much there as you seem to do
    Some of the early residents of the "gardens" could not adapt to the mod-cons. Many still never used the baths, washing themselves down standing in the bathroom.

    Hurst Gardens that you mentioned were very ordinary compared to some, the lifts btw were installed in certain blocks meeting the requirements in 1950 and worked for not much more than a decade.
    Few had lifts. Dingle House had lifts. I think over 5 floors and lifts were fitted. They were the early "gardens" with the iron railings instead of brick walls. Hurst Gardens looked good from Edge Lane.

    BTW, I was an engineer with Britsh Gas when a kid and went into every one these gardens, so I can speak from some authority. I recall being called out at 8:00pm to Kent Garden as the gas main had failed and we worked to first make safe and then get a section of the flats in operation. The same happend same with Kings Gardens too. In Gerrard Gardens they used to knock on the doors selling knocked off shirts. I bought one once.

    As the 70s came these gardens became hell holes. We could not take the vehicles inside some of them. The police and Gas Corp arranged a sting In Myrtle House to get the thieves who broke into vans. The idiot cops never got them. Myrtle House was a hole.

    I recall visting a house opposite the Piggeries. I locked up the van and walked a few yards and knocked on the door. The lady opened the door and screamed "watch the van they will get into it in a few minutes". They said we will look after it. Two of her teenage kids stood beside the van while I did something in the house - they were scared I would leave if the van was attacked, which I would have. They were pissed off as delivery and service people would not go to their houses. A Clockwork Orange got it right.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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    Senior Member shytalk's Avatar
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    Quote Waterways: A Clockwork Orange got it right.

    We don't often agree but you got it dead right there.
    You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
    Winston Churchill

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