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Thread: Preserved Liverpool Horse Tram No 43

  1. #1
    Senior Member xkopite's Avatar
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    Default Preserved Liverpool Horse Tram No 43

    Does anyone have any dimensions for this horse tram.
    I have tried to contact the MTPS and others persons but have had no replies.
    Maybe one of our members here has this info.
    Thank you in advance.


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    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    One like this ?



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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    It looks similar to this design [attachment below, although it has 7 windows, not 6] - built by 'John Stephenson & Co, New York, USA'. The company did export to Liverpool in 1879. See report here.

    The picture attached [source London Transport Museum Archive] is of a London Tramways Company double deck horse tram No 284, built by John Stephenson & Co, New York, USA, 1882

    Reference number: 1981/533 part 0

    Dimensions:

    Width: 2130mm,
    Height: 3200mm

    The advantages of this design were explained by the company, when they won the bid to supply London - in an interview with Scientific America:

    “Our cars weigh less by one-half than those made in Germany. They can be procured for £35 less than Birmingham can quote. The cars we furnish Glasgow can be operated from a stable one-third smaller than their own cars require. The nature of American woods has much to do with our success. The selection and preparation of material are no light jobs; the process of preparation requires three to four years. American irons are tougher than the English and we can get the required strength with less weight. We use white oak, white ash, poplar, basswood, hickory, beech, maple and pine—woods all easily procurable by us, while the English are obliged to use teakwood. Because their woods are inferior, they find it necessary to reinforce with iron, at the expense of lightness. . . . We meet with considerable opposition abroad, and the press is used to raise a cry against any corporation sending money away from home, especially in these hard times.”
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Senior Member xkopite's Avatar
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    Thanks lads,
    I do know that Liverpool Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd built their own after taking delivery of 24-30 American Cars.
    I just have not got the length of Liverpool built ones.
    The b/w picture looks like an Eades patented reversable car supplied from Manchester, length approx 18.5 feet
    Any help please with car 43 please.
    Thank you again

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    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza View Post
    It looks similar to this design [attachment below, although it has 7 windows, not 6] - built by 'John Stephenson & Co, New York, USA'. The company did export to Liverpool in 1879. See report here.

    The picture attached [source London Transport Museum Archive] is of a London Tramways Company double deck horse tram No 284, built by John Stephenson & Co, New York, USA, 1882

    Reference number: 1981/533 part 0

    Dimensions:

    Width: 2130mm,
    Height: 3200mm

    The advantages of this design were explained by the company, when they won the bid to supply London - in an interview with Scientific America:

    “Our cars weigh less by one-half than those made in Germany. They can be procured for £35 less than Birmingham can quote. The cars we furnish Glasgow can be operated from a stable one-third smaller than their own cars require. The nature of American woods has much to do with our success. The selection and preparation of material are no light jobs; the process of preparation requires three to four years. American irons are tougher than the English and we can get the required strength with less weight. We use white oak, white ash, poplar, basswood, hickory, beech, maple and pine—woods all easily procurable by us, while the English are obliged to use teakwood. Because their woods are inferior, they find it necessary to reinforce with iron, at the expense of lightness. . . . We meet with considerable opposition abroad, and the press is used to raise a cry against any corporation sending money away from home, especially in these hard times.”
    What a fine looking machine and I bet a whole lot cleaner and more reliable than the public transport of today.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    A good form of transport, but a bit draughty on top though? Underworld's ealier B&W photo also dispells the rumour that only men where allowed to travel on the tops.

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    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    Here is one with 8 windows Dazza. Geo Starbucks? Found this old photo today at the market.




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    Senior Member xkopite's Avatar
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    Hi Lads,
    Thanks for posting pictures, I am lucky enough to have them.
    I still have not found the dimensions for car 43 as yet.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Great picture underworld.

    I have a little more information. Did you see the sign on the building as well? "George Starbuck & Co."

    It's the The Starbuck Car and Wagon Company Ltd of 227 Cleveland Street, Birkenhead supplied the tramway with its first cars - a total of eleven between 1876 and 1886. The rest of the link is here.

    Daz

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Xkopite,

    Have you tried Ron's site. He may have the answer? http://liverpolitan.im/tram/tramintro.htm

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    Senior Member xkopite's Avatar
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    dazza

    Have emailed Ron on the 3rd Jan 2010, to date had no reply.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Xkopite, is "43" a manufacturer's No. or one assigned by Liverpool Tramway Company?

    According to the MTPS site the No. 43 tram is back at Taylor St.? here. They say that Tram 43 was probably constructed at Tramway Road in Aigburth, and Lambeth Road? So unless they have taken a measurement of it, it's not likely to exist online. I would go to Taylor Street, and speak to someone there? That's probably your best chance?

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    May be worth an email to this site too:
    http://www.tramway.co.uk
    Started the Old Swan Website:

    http://oldswan.piczo.com/?cr=5

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    Senior Member xkopite's Avatar
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    dazza
    43 is the verhicle number allocated by Liverpool Tramways.
    I have visited the MTPS site but cannot find an email contact to ask anyone about this subject.
    It may be some time before I can visit the museum thats why I have asked the question on this site.

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