Mormon Immigration 1

**pablo42** · 01-13-2010

Nice one WW. A man of many talents indeed.

**kevin** · 01-13-2010

Hi Brian,
Really glad you posted the document. I copied it and sent it to a mate who is a Professor at Arizona State University, who just happens to be a Mormon.
He's just responded and thanked me as his ancestors are from Wales and sailed from Liverpool about the same time - they could even have been on that boat.
He's going to look into it.
Small world.
Cheers,
Kevin

**az_gila** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by Waterways

The mass emigration to the USA coincided after the land grab by the British aristocracy - the Highland clearances, the enclosures, etc. This pushed people into relative poverty, landless and having pay rents to landowners. America was the only way to improve your lifestyle. They were in effect forced out. It is still going on today. Indigenous British emigration is still quite high as people move to get themselves a decent sized home to live in.
......
All to do with land.

...something else going on in Scotland (Ayrshire)...

My entire family, as far as we can tell, left Ayrshire in the 1850 to 1860 period.

Some went to America, one later went to Australia, and several went down into Yorkshire and settled initially around Whitby (Scalby Mill).

According to contempary reports, Ayrshire was doing well at that time, with more land being drained and reclaimed for farming. They were even able to absorb some of the "potato famine" Irish with no animosity.

A 1846 report on an adjacent parish.

http://www.maybole.org/history/Gazat...aybole1846.htm

and an earlier 1837 one

http://www.maybole.org/history/Archi...ry/Maybole.htm

...and Kirkoswald, where my family is from...

http://www.ayr.org/history/1837Directory/Kirkoswald.htm

The evil landowners big mansions had fallen into ruin by this time...

Coal mining was expanding and tar was being extracted to "tarmac" and the locals were weaving...

It might have been the rise of the cheaper woven fabrics from the expanded mills created from imported (probably through Liverpool) that did in this "cottage industry" - though the census records shown none of my family in this trade.

The "it's about stealing land" generality is just too much of a simplification, but might work well for current socialistic politics...

Perhaps the Luddites should have taken over and we should have remained in the horse and buggy era still weaving our own clothes...

**az_gila** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by Waterways

Why a Mormon family? What indicates so? Did the Mormons pay for it?

...apparently they did pay for it...

The Emigrants (statue), Albert Dock, Liverpool
A bronze sculpture by Mark De Graffenried, 2001.
This statue of a young family commemorates migration from Liverpool to the new world. It was given to the people of Liverpool by the Mormon Church as a tribute to the many families from all over Europe who embarked on a brave and pioneering voyage from Liverpool to start a new life in America. The child stepping forward at the front symbolises migration to the unknown world, whilst the child playing with a crab at the back SJ3389 : Rear of 'The Emigrants' statue, Albert Dock, Liverpool indicates a deep association with the sea.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/482942

**Waterways** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by az_gila

The "it's about stealing land" generality is just too much of a simplification, but might work well for current socialistic politics...

You have been in America too long. Land stealing was what made the place.

Many over there are brainwashed; that anything to the lefty of Genghis Khan is Communist.

Look at this thread and the Youtube clips.
Fred Harrison Clips

Perhaps the Luddites should have taken over and we should have remained in the horse and buggy era still weaving our own clothes...

Your knowledge of history is lacking, and reasoning less.

You are saying that the stealing of land by the British Aristocracy was justified. They are stinking rich because of it.

"Stop to consider how the so-called owners of the land got hold of it. They simply seized it by force, afterwards hiring lawyers to provide them with title-deeds. In the case of the enclosure of the common lands, which was going on from about 1600 to 1850, the land-grabbers did not even have the excuse of being foreign conquerors; they were quite frankly taking the heritage of their own countrymen, upon no sort of pretext except that they had the power to do so."
– George Orwell.

"Except for the few surviving commons, the high roads, the lands of the National Trust, a certain number of parks, and the sea shore below high-tide mark, every square inch of England is `owned' by a few thousand families. These people are just about as useful as so many tapeworms. It is desirable that people should own their own dwelling houses, and it is probably desirable that a farmer should own as much land as he can actually farm."
– George Orwell.

BTW, the Luddites were not anti-progress. They wanted a pot contributed by the benefactors of the new sweeping technology to assist those whose livelihoods were wrecked and in dire poverty. A fair and just claim. The greedy factory owners said no - these people were immensely rich. Ned Ludd was hanged for attempting to impose some social justice. They turned to violence after their claims were rejected.

**kevin** · 01-13-2010

Jeez, WW, are you going to turn yet another thread into a slanging match?

Give it a rest FFS.

**Waterways** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by kevin

Jeez, WW, are you going to turn yet another thread into a slanging match?

Give it a rest FFS.

Why don't you give it a rest and stop whining like an old woman. You are like a stuck record.

**kevin** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by Waterways

Why don't you give it a rest and stop whining like an old woman. You are like a stuck record.

**az_gila** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by kevin

Jeez, WW, are you going to turn yet another thread into a slanging match?

Give it a rest FFS.

...I'll restrain political comments to WW....

**captain kong** · 01-13-2010

Why don't you give it a rest and stop whining like an old woman. You are like a stuck record W.W

My goodness gracious me, our Waterworks realy has his knickers twisted today.
I feel it is a good thing we are not at a meet up in an alehouse in Liverpool.

**pablo42** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by captain kong

Why don't you give it a rest and stop whining like an old woman. You are like a stuck record W.W

My goodness gracious me, our Waterworks realy has his knickers twisted today.
I feel it is a good thing we are not at a meet up in an alehouse in Liverpool.

Ha, we all have bad days Captain.

I did hear that WW used to wrestle alligators in Australia.

I'll not mess with him..

**captain kong** · 01-13-2010

I used to wrestle Port Line Mary in Sydney, now she was a real hard case.
You had to do 15 X Ten minute rounds with her before you got her anywhere near the bunk.

**pablo42** · 01-13-2010

Originally Posted by captain kong

I used to wrestle Port Line Mary in Sydney, now she was a real hard case.

Ha, rather you than me Captain. I'd hate to scream like a girl with a woman wringing me neck.

It's bad enought if it's a big 20 stone hard man...

I've done too much screaming...

**brian daley** · 01-13-2010

Well,if I might just put my two pennorth in. This thread was intended to show the suffering and hardships of a group of people who braved the Atlantic Ocean in search of a better way of life. I'm just a bit peed off at the reduction to political slanging some people seem to want to do on every thread they appear on. Give it a rest fellers, or go and organise a site for the discontented.
Beef over, and Kevin,thanks for sending the post along to your friend in Arizona, that was the sort of response we were hoping for,keep me posted,
BrianD