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Thread: James Maybrick

  1. #61
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyMay View Post
    Hi All,

    Firstly can I say thank you to Jericho for his response to my request for further info on just why he feels/felt able to dismiss the diary so quickly. Like Chris however I do find it strange to hear you say that you still believe Maybrick could be a strong candidate in light of the reasons you have given for dismissing the diary. As far as I can see, if you accept that Michael Barrett (or anyone else for that matter) forged the diary then there really cannot be any other reason to suspect that James had anything to do with the murders whatsoever. He was not connected to the enquiry at the time, and had not even been thought of as a suspect until the diary came to light so, in fairness to him, If we believe the diary to be a fake I think we should all acknowledge his innocence. Once again Jericho please do not take these comments of mine the wrong way, I do not intend to 'have a go' at you or decry your opinion but am simply responding to what you've said in an honest way.

    All the best,

    Tony.
    You and Chris are such rationalists! My basic premise is that it will never be possible to prove the Ripper's identity conclusively. Any criminal investigator knows that non-familial murderers are hard to find. I read somewhere that there's a window of about two weeks to track them down and then it becomes increasingly difficult to find them unless they have a psychological need to get caught or slip up through complacency. Most serial killers don't have this need and don't slip up. I can't remember the estimates but the FBI has stated that at any one time there are approximately x serial killers on the lose in the States who will probably never get caught.

    Retrospectively applying this analysis to Jack. Need I say more. After all this time...

    In terms of Maybrick, I take a 'murder-she-wrote' stance. One moment I'm dipping a madeleine into a cup of tea and the next moment, peverse synchronicity, call it what you will. It comes to me. The 'diary' reveals a hidden knowledge, an accumulated understanding that points in one direction. I'm even prepared to accept that parts of it are real, but embellished by little ol' wine drinking Barrett.


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  2. #62
    Senior Member AntiPathos's Avatar
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    Looks like two new articles concerning the diary are showing up on the famous Casebook site: http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...-analysis.html

  3. #63
    Senior Member AntiPathos's Avatar
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    Jericho,

    IMO, murders are not solved or unsolved through the use of generalisations

    I think what I'm getting at is that if next week someone rooted around in an attic, found an old trunk and lo and behold, espied an antique knife, a piece of apron, an old diary detailing a long, lost relative's whereabouts in the Autumn/Winter of 1888 which could be verified and some badly decomposed human body parts in jars which corresponded to the DNA of living descendants of any of the victims then it just might be possible to prove whodunnit. Whether or not you'd class that as a slip-up on JTr's part I don't know. But whether it's even in the interests of Ripper writers to solve these crimes is a moot point in itself. Would you choose temporary glory over a regular income ?

    AP.

  4. #64
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiPathos View Post
    Jericho,

    IMO, murders are not solved or unsolved through the use of generalisations

    I think what I'm getting at is that if next week someone rooted around in an attic, found an old trunk and lo and behold, espied an antique knife, a piece of apron, an old diary detailing a long, lost relative's whereabouts in the Autumn/Winter of 1888 which could be verified and some badly decomposed human body parts in jars which corresponded to the DNA of living descendants of any of the victims then it just might be possible to prove whodunnit. Whether or not you'd class that as a slip-up on JTr's part I don't know. But whether it's even in the interests of Ripper writers to solve these crimes is a moot point in itself. Would you choose temporary glory over a regular income ?

    AP.
    Hi Jericho and AP

    Excellent points, both.

    AP you stated, "But whether it's even in the interests of Ripper writers to solve these crimes is a moot point in itself. Would you choose temporary glory over a regular income?"

    I keep hearing this argument, as if there is a club of Ripper writers who are keeping the truth from being told. As you both indicated, it is doubtful if the Ripper now could be identified. And few if any Ripper writers make a fortune out writing a Ripper book. Well, maybe Patricia Cornwell made some bucks. For most, their books are in essence specialty books and not best sellers. No one, for the most part, is getting rich off the Ripper.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiPathos View Post
    Jericho,

    IMO, murders are not solved or unsolved through the use of generalisations

    I think what I'm getting at is that if next week someone rooted around in an attic, found an old trunk and lo and behold, espied an antique knife, a piece of apron, an old diary detailing a long, lost relative's whereabouts in the Autumn/Winter of 1888 which could be verified and some badly decomposed human body parts in jars which corresponded to the DNA of living descendants of any of the victims then it just might be possible to prove whodunnit. Whether or not you'd class that as a slip-up on JTr's part I don't know. But whether it's even in the interests of Ripper writers to solve these crimes is a moot point in itself. Would you choose temporary glory over a regular income ?

    AP.
    I'm more interested in how the Ripper factions defend their choice of suspect and what draws them to Jack in the first place than anything else. I'm choosing Maybrick because his candidacy appeals to me for the reasons already stated. I don't for a moment believe that the identity of Jack is known. Even people in love with the constant sound of ker-ching couldn't resist the lure of being identified as the one who finally named the Ripper. Now that would be a money spinner.

  6. #66
    Member TonyMay's Avatar
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    Hi Everybody,

    No time to respond to some of your recent posts at the moment as I am going out soon but I will don't worry! HA HA

    Listen, I have managed to badger my boss about not being able to attend 'The Trial Of James Maybrick' in May sufficiently that he has now said that I CAN have the time off I need. With this in mind I am now looking at trying to attend the event. Do any of you know of any guest house's or B and B's that are near the event? If anyone has any info please post here or e mail me a personal message. My budget's not that big but it might be possible. I would be travelling up on the Thursday (17th of May) and staying for four nights returning home on the Monday. Any help would be appreciated. Time is of the essence I would imagine because I need to know if I'm going to be able to attend before I buy a ticket.

    It would be wonderful to see you all, so here's hoping!

    More soon,

    Tony.

  7. #67
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi Tony

    Pleased to hear that you believe you will be able to attend the Maybrick event in May. There are B&B's in the south end of Liverpool not far from the Liverpool Cricket Ground on Aigburth Road. I am thinking of places, for example, around Sefton Park and in Garston. Someone with knowledge of them can set you right and you can also get information on accomodations etc from http://www.visitliverpool.com/

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    Hi Tony,

    This one is just a few minutes walk from the cricket club.

    http://www.innkeeperslodge.com/lodge...asp?lodgeID=30

  9. #69
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
    Hi Tony,

    This one is just a few minutes walk from the cricket club.

    http://www.innkeeperslodge.com/lodge...asp?lodgeID=30
    Thanks, Jericho. Is that where the old Aigburth Hotel used to be?

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  10. #70
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    Yes, or thereabouts. The current hotel sprawls a bit and doesn't add much to Aigburth Road's charm (to understate it) but I guess it meets a need. Maybrick's ghost probably walks the grounds.

  11. #71
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
    Yes, or thereabouts. The current hotel sprawls a bit and doesn't add much to Aigburth Road's charm (to understate it) but I guess it meets a need. Maybrick's ghost probably walks the grounds.
    Yep he'll be the bloke leaning on the bar downing the tumbler full of arsenic.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  12. #72
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    By the way, the Maybrick event is receiving quite a lot of flak from Diary opponents on Casebook at the moment. I am against the Diary but I have no problem with the event. See http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...5117#post65117

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  13. #73
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    By the way, the Maybrick event is receiving quite a lot of flak from Diary opponents on Casebook at the moment. I am against the Diary but I have no problem with the event. See http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...5117#post65117

    Chris
    The Grange Hotel in Holmefield Road is an early Victorian mansion and is only 5 minutes walk from the cricket ground.

  14. #74
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    The Grange Hotel in Holmefield Road is an early Victorian mansion and is only 5 minutes walk from the cricket ground.
    Right I had forgotten the Grange Hotel. Thanks for the tip, Philip. How do you like that house across the road with the dog's heads on the corners and the deer's head on the front of the facade? Formely a lodge for one of the neighborhood mansions. I had forgotten about it when we were doing the thread about animals' heads around the city. I photographed it years ago but maybe you or someone could photograph it as it is now.

    All my best

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  15. #75
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Right I had forgotten the Grange Hotel. Thanks for the tip, Philip. How do you like that house across the road with the dog's heads on the corners and the deer's head on the front of the facade? Formely a lodge for one of the neighborhood mansions. I had forgotten about it when we were doing the thread about animals' heads around the city. I photographed it years ago but maybe you or someone could photograph it as it is now.

    All my best

    Chris
    I used to visit Mrs Roberts who lived there, and even house-sat there when she visited her son in Australia.
    It was built in the 18th century before the other houses in the district.
    She told me that Nicholas Montsarret lived there for a while.
    I took quite a few photos - none of the interior, unfortunately.
    I'll root some out.

  16. #76
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I used to visit Mrs Roberts who lived there, and even house-sat there when she visited her son in Australia.
    It was built in the 18th century before the other houses in the district.
    She told me that Nicholas Montsarret lived there for a while.
    I took quite a few photos - none of the interior, unfortunately.
    I'll root some out.
    Great, many thanks, Philip. Maybe start a new thread on it or put it in the animal heads thread. I didn't know the Nicholas Monsarrat connection. That's cool.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  17. #77
    Member TonyMay's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks so much to all of you for your invaluable help in suggesting suitable accomodation for me to stay in when I travel up to the 'Trial Of James Maybrick' in May. In the end I have booked into the Innkeepers Lodge... I just couldn't resist it when Jericho suggested that 'Maybrick's Ghost walks the grounds!' HA HA HA.
    I have got me ticket and booked a place on the Friday bus trip and I CAN'T WAIT for it all to start. By the way if any of you lot are thinking of going in for the music quiz on the Sat evening you could do worse than get me on your team. My only claim to fame in life is the fact that I once took on a whole Pub doing a music quiz on my own and beat the lot of them single handed! In truth, the questions were pretty easy and a lot of people could have 'whipped their asses' but I still laughed my head off that night as I walked out the door!
    I think it is going to be a facinating weekend but I think it most likely that a NOT GUILTY verdict will be returned by the jury. Despite what you all might think, this is how I would vote if I had to vote NOW, TODAY, without any further evidence. Why? Because I have always believed in our (now defunkt grrrr) criminal justice system. A person used to be INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT. Even a staunch 'Maybrickite' like myself dosen't think at present that there is anywhere enough actual evidence to prove James's guilt to meet the BRD requirement. All I feel that I can say is that, for me, James Maybrick is the most likely person to have been Jack The Ripper. Any thoughts?

  18. #78
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyMay View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks so much to all of you for your invaluable help in suggesting suitable accomodation for me to stay in when I travel up to the 'Trial Of James Maybrick' in May. In the end I have booked into the Innkeepers Lodge... I just couldn't resist it when Jericho suggested that 'Maybrick's Ghost walks the grounds!' HA HA HA.
    I have got me ticket and booked a place on the Friday bus trip and I CAN'T WAIT for it all to start. By the way if any of you lot are thinking of going in for the music quiz on the Sat evening you could do worse than get me on your team. My only claim to fame in life is the fact that I once took on a whole Pub doing a music quiz on my own and beat the lot of them single handed! In truth, the questions were pretty easy and a lot of people could have 'whipped their asses' but I still laughed my head off that night as I walked out the door!
    I think it is going to be a facinating weekend but I think it most likely that a NOT GUILTY verdict will be returned by the jury. Despite what you all might think, this is how I would vote if I had to vote NOW, TODAY, without any further evidence. Why? Because I have always believed in our (now defunkt grrrr) criminal justice system. A person used to be INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT. Even a staunch 'Maybrickite' like myself dosen't think at present that there is anywhere enough actual evidence to prove James's guilt to meet the BRD requirement. All I feel that I can say is that, for me, James Maybrick is the most likely person to have been Jack The Ripper. Any thoughts?

    Hi Tony

    James Maybrick may have been Jack the Ripper in his own mind. There were apparently quite a few people like that at the time judging by all the undoubtedly hoax letters: hundreds of people signing communications as "Jack the Ripper" trying to con the authorities, for their few minutes of fame. Maybrick might have been one of those nutters, Diary or no Diary. Who knows?

    As Jericho indicates, it appears the Innkeepers Lodge stands on the site of the old Aigburth Hotel. This is where the inquest on Maybrick was opened and closed by coroner Samuel Brighouse at the end of May 1889 only to resume later at the Garston Reading Room. It is also opposite one of the chemists where Florie bought the flypapers.

    Chris
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  19. #79
    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    Here's a photo of 60 Huskisson St, home of Florence's lover Alfred Brierley.
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  20. #80
    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Default Grange Hotel Aigburth is no more

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Right I had forgotten the Grange Hotel. Thanks for the tip, Philip. How do you like that house across the road with the dog's heads on the corners and the deer's head on the front of the facade? Formely a lodge for one of the neighborhood mansions. I had forgotten about it when we were doing the thread about animals' heads around the city. I photographed it years ago but maybe you or someone could photograph it as it is now.

    All my best

    Chris
    Dear Chris,

    This hotel has closed and has been converted into "luxury apartments". Liverpool no longer uses the word flats and of course all apartments are of the "luxury" variety. Not quite sure what "luxury" means, perhaps running hot and cold water !!

    Taffy
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  21. #81
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi Steve & Taffy

    Thank you both for the information and the great pics.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  22. #82
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    5 minutes walk from the cricket ground is Grassendale Park. One of the good things about Grassendale Park, including the dinky little railway station at Cressington, (no longer called Cressington & Grassendale) is that it would be completely recognisable to Maybrick if he were to come back today. Nearly all the large houses are intact. Although just further up Aigburth/St Mary's Road in the made up 'Cressington Heath' it looks as though luxury apartments are about to make an appearance along with, wait for it, executive homes!)

  23. #83
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
    5 minutes walk from the cricket ground is Grassendale Park. One of the good things about Grassendale Park, including the dinky little railway station at Cressington, (no longer called Cressington & Grassendale) is that it would be completely recognisable to Maybrick if he were to come back today. Nearly all the large houses are intact. Although just further up Aigburth/St Mary's Road in the made up 'Cressington Heath' it looks as though luxury apartments are about to make an appearance along with, wait for it, executive homes!)
    Hi Jericho

    I agree as to Grassendale Park being well worth seeing for its Victorian mansions. James and Florie Maybrick lived at Beechville, 7 South Road in Grassendale Park before moving to Battlecrease House. Jericho, is it true that Steven Gerrard lives in Grassendale as I think I read? Also I have never been clear on this.... what's the difference between Cressington and Grassendale or are they actually the same place?

    Chris
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  24. #84
    Senior Member Jericho's Avatar
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    Not really. They were two private adjacent residential parks rather like Fulwood Park in L17. Grassendale is slightly more upmarket in terms of the quality of the housing. They are now part of a combined conservation area where everything is tightly regulated, even the station (officially in Cressington) looks as though it would be at home in the nineteenth century. Cressington Park is closest to Aigburth Road. Some of the best houses are to be found in North Road and South Road (Grassendale). Grassendale and Cressington Esplanades are both very attractive and well worth a visit, too.

  25. #85
    Member TonyMay's Avatar
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    Default 'Great Stuff Lads! Your Making My Mouth Water!"

    Hi Chris, Jericho and everyone.

    Wow! I am gobsmacked to think that the innkeepers Lodge where I will be staying in May is actually built on the site of the place where the inquest into Maybricks death took place at the time. No wonder Jericho suggested that James's ghost haunts the grounds.. Funny thing is I don't think I would be scared if I ran into his ghost now. I think I'm so interested in his life and the diary that, even if he had his 'shiny knife' with him I'd probably invite him in for a chat and a cup of tea! HA HA HA HA HA HA
    Many thanks to Steve and Taffy for the interesting photo's. Alfred Brierley is actually buried not all that far from Hastings at a small place in the country called Newick (near Lewes). I have never visited his grave as I don't drive and it's virtually unreachable by public transport from here. The fact that Brierley chose to live out the latter years of his life somewhere right 'away from it all' is perhaps significant in itself.
    Thanks once again Chris for the link to the William D Rubenstein article. I have now read it and enjoyed it immensely. Predictably I agree with a lot of what Rubenstein says and think it a distinct posibility that Alice Yapp could well have stolen the diary from the house at the time (seeing as it was Yapp that opened Florries letter to Brierley when little Gladys 'dropped it in the mud'). 'I leave this now in a place where it shall be found' I think James say's in the diary. This certainly suggests that James could have left it in such a place where anyone searching the house could have found it.
    We do know also that around the time James died that Michael Maybrick DID initiate searches of the house. I also find the evidence about Florence Aunspaugh's reference to James being known as 'Sir James' quite interesting too. Maybrick was known by all to be a gentle and essentially placid man but he was also known to have had a ferocious temper if roused. As I have said here before, I find James's inclination to 'grossly inflate his own ego' in this kind of way perfectly consistent with that of a frustrated and powerless individual suffering with depression and or mental illness. The 'Diego letter' is also very interesting. I feel it quite possible that it could indeed have been sent by Maybrick. I must say however that the connection that Rubenstein makes to the Laurenz signature rhyming with Florence is rather tenuous! The ill James Maybrick was I believe a man that enjoyed taunting the authorities and the fact that he perpetually got away with doing so would serve only to heighten his own feeling of importance and invincibility. In real life of course James could see his life falling apart around him, he was losing not only his wife but his sexual prowess and quite possibly also his business...
    Along with the 'Diego letter' there is the 'Liverpool businessman' letter written on the front part of a newspaper, the Goulston Street Graffitto (James instead of Juwes) another letter (which I cannot recall the Ripperologists title for now) that gave the rippers current adress in Liverpool (it turned out to be adjacent to St James's St) AND even the fact that Mitre Square in 1888 led directly into ST JAMES PLACE that all add weight if you accept James Maybrick as the Ripper to his love of leaving 'clues' for the police.
    Well I'm off to play a few of my own 'funny little games' (don't worry, only on my Playstation!) What say you!!!

    'All hands on deck! Prepare for a barrage!!! HA HA HA)

    All the best,

    Tony.

  26. #86
    PhilipG
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    Default The Poste House pub, Cumberland Street.

    I told Chris that I'd post this pic.
    I'll leave it to him to write the caption.
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  27. #87
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I told Chris that I'd post this pic.
    I'll leave it to him to write the caption.
    Hi PhilipG

    Many thanks for posting that photograph of the Poste House pub in Cumberland Street. As Diary afficianados will know, the Diary states at one point that James Maybrick took "refreshment" at a place called the "Poste House." I and other critics have taken this to be a mistake by whomever wrote the Diary--a hoaxer posing as James Maybrick--since this establishment was not known by that name in 1888-9 but was known then as the "Muck Midden."

    However, others, such as authors Paul Begg and Caroline Morris, have argued that the diarist could have meant somewhere else that was informally known as the "Poste House."

    It has been pointed out, for example, that Dale Street, off which Cumberland Street runs, was the street in Liverpool where the stagecoaches bringing the mail came, and that taverns where the mail was brought were referred to as "post houses." Of course, by 1888-9, the era of stagecoaches transporting the mail was over by some 40 plus years, and the railways had taken over that function.

    Ms. Morris has also stated that the Post Office Hotel in School Lane might have been known as the "Poste House." This seems a stretch to me, and as a Liverpudlian I think the Poste House in Cumberland Street was meant and that the hoaxer, knowing the place had that "olde world" spelling, assumed the establishment had that name in 1888-9.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    Chris and Tony - whatever your contrasting thoughts are on the diary and whether or not the Poste House in Cumberland St was in fact mentioned, its a must see pub during your stay for the event, one of the best untouched traditional boozers left in the city centre. Surreally though, the upstairs is now a gay bar so you may enjoy your visit more in the daytime.

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    Apart from Battlecrease Mansion, (on the other hand is there anything else in Riversdale Road of any value to Maybrick devotees?) you won't find much of interest in contemporary Riversdale Road - unless you want to spend 150K on a recently built (can't quite put my finger on the style, I think it begins with c) two bedroom apartment, luxury of course. Good view of the water from the car park at the bottom, too. Occasionally a bit of random railing, or a remnant of gatepost denoting another Liverpool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
    Apart from Battlecrease Mansion, (on the other hand is there anything else in Riversdale Road of any value to Maybrick devotees?) you won't find much of interest in contemporary Riversdale Road - unless you want to spend 150K on a recently built (can't quite put my finger on the style, I think it begins with c) two bedroom apartment, luxury of course. Good view of the water from the car park at the bottom, too. Occasionally a bit of random railing, or a remnant of gatepost denoting another Liverpool.
    Hi Jericho and Steve

    Jericho, your impression of Riversdale Road is about the same as mine. I would agree that for visitors apart from the Maybrick mansion, the biggest thing is the view of the river from the bottom of the road.

    I was able to see the interior of Battlecrease, though only the downstairs, courtesy of the tenant of that part of the house (it now being split up into flats) at the time of the 2003 Jack the Ripper convention at the Adelphi. I saw the study where Maybrick probably answered his business letters and maybe (as if) made jottings in the Diary. My visit was somewhat spoiled by happening to step into some doggy doo which led to me having to wipe my shoes on the lawn!

    Steve, I did have a pint in the Poste House on that same visit to Liverpool and was accompanied by Andy Aliffe, a Ripper expert as well as a former BBC comedy producer who has some amusing anecdotes of working with (or trying to work with!) the redoubtable Ken Dodd. I am not sure that either of us knew that upstairs at the Poste House was a gay bar though. Do either of you remember the Magic Clock in Williamson Square which was said to be the gay pub when I went on pub crawls in the Sixties?

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
    Chris on Flickr and on MySpace

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