James Maybrick

[TonyMay]

Hi Paul, Hi Chris,

Mr Butler, you are just the kind of guy I have been trying to meet on the JTR casebook (without much luck!)! I love it when someone has the ability to 'think outside the envelope' and from what you have posted on here it's obvious to me that you can!! Mind you, I must also say at this point that it is just as good to have someone like Chris on board to keep both of our feet on the ground but CONSTRUCTIVELY. If only the lot on the casebook could be like this we might actually get somewhere! Considering how a lot of the servants at Battlecrease House seemed to act in James and Florries employ, I think your theory about nurse Over and Alice Yapp could easily be a valid solution to the watch mystery. I believe Trevor Christies book mentions somewhere that James was frequently unhappy with the servants in his employ (in particular the gardener can't recall his name grrr!!!). I also feel that a lot of the female servants did not approve of Florrie and James's union and may well have felt a certain resentment over her arrival. I get a feeling that, though only his housekeeper, Alice Yapp may have been rather fond herself on Mr Maybrick (who knows with James's appetite he may even have had a sexual liason with her) and so may well have wished to keep the 'masters watch' for herself after his death. It's even possible that Michael Maybrick could have presented her with the watch in recognition of all the good service she had provided James over the years and throughout his final illness. If this was the case it might explain why it was listed on the itinery of possesions you mention but never sold at the auction. Michael was not a scruplious man on the evidence of how he dealt with James's estate anyway as a lot of the furniture etc that was supposed to have been the childrens was sold off by him against James's wishes.
Do you know any more about when nurse over and /or John over died? What happened to their possesions after their death? Were there children from the union? If a link to the Overs could be proved it would add considerable weight to the credibility of the watch at least.
The diary however is a very different beast! I'm really intrigued by Steve Powell's story and belive that he at least feels what he is telling us is the truth. Thing is though, the tin match box problem again gets in the way if you want to believe the date he gives of 1969-75. To believe this you have to believe that from AUSTRALIA they somehow managed to get access to the officially SEALED archives to see the police itinery list. For me, this is far more unlikely than my theory that Anne Graham DID have the original copy of James's diary and that she and Steven Park used most of what was in that for inspiration to create the diary we now have. The passages about the tin match box and 'oh costly intercourse of death' could have been late additions by Mike Barrett (Powell say's he thinks Mike added to Parks original). It's all very confusing now and hard (even for me!) to come up with a feasible explaination...

Oh well, over to you!

All the best,

Tony.

[Paul Butler]

Hello Chris and Tony.

Sorry to take a while to get back to you on this but I’ve just had a lovely week off!!

Chris.

My speculation around the watch’s origins is of course just that. Speculation. Nevertheless it’s the only scenario I can come up with that fits all the known facts without having to bend or ignore some of them completely. It’s interesting you think Nurse Over should be out of the picture as she had left Battlecrease by the time of James’ death. One of Florrie’s letters sent from prison specifically stated that she would prefer Nurse Over to look after the children. This would be in preference to any of the family doing so, or even the present nursemaid Yapp. This to me implies that at the very least the two women remained close, and that Nurse Over remained a familiar face to the Maybrick children at Battlecrease.

Tony.

Thanks for your kind words. “Thinking outside the envelope” is the only way anybody is ever likely to solve this mess I think. The trouble is that so many views on both sides are so heavily biased with people’s own prejudices that sometimes minor but interesting little snippets that might just help piece the whole thing together tend to get swamped. It’s like Feldman’s book. It’s full of some really interesting and worthwhile research, and yet a lot of this seems to get lost due to his tendency, to put it mildly, of leaping to astonishing conclusions to suit his own views and adding two and two to make ten!

I’m still trying, when I have the time, to chase up on the watch further and see if I can confirm, (or deny!), my strong belief that the scratches are a lot older than many seem to hope they are. I am fairly sure I know what H 9/3, (one of the neater scratches that is nothing to do with the “Maybrick” ones), means, but I’ve got to do a bit more checking on that. Not that it’ll help a lot, but would be good evidence that the scratches are decades old.

As for the diary, I have indeed waded through the tedium of the supposed Australian provenance. The manner of its appearance, in such an awful attempted theatrical way, and the fact that there is not a shred of evidence to back it up leaves me stone cold. As I see it we now have three provenances for the blessed thing. An unsubstantiated tale from a Scouser scrap dealer who likes a drink, an unsubstantiated tale from a long-winded Australian source that appears to be little more than attention seeking, and an unsubstantiated tale from a respected Ripper author with impeccable credentials.

No prizes for guessing which I prefer! I just hope Keith Skinner doesn’t keep us dangling forever, but of course if he’s right, then there would be some pretty serious repercussions for quite a few people due to the questionable ownership of the diary! That, I would guess, might need some serious sorting out before going public.

As for the Tin matchbox and Costly intercourse, well the matchbox doesn’t bother me as much as the intercourse, if I’m allowed to say that, but I think this post’s longs enough as it is.

Regards to you both.

Paul

[WilliamBrown]

Well just maybe, just maybe, I'll do my homework on this one. The so-called 'fact' that Maybrick was an old Collegiate Boy, seems to be based on the same premise that most of the stuff I have read suggests he was ALSO Jack The Ripper. Arguments from silence are sometimes very misleading.

[ChrisGeorge]

Well just maybe, just maybe, I'll do my homework on this one. The so-called 'fact' that Maybrick was an old Collegiate Boy, seems to be based on the same premise that most of the stuff I have read suggests he was ALSO Jack The Ripper. Arguments from silence are sometimes very misleading.

Hi William

I am not sure this is given out as "fact" that Maybrick attended Liverpool Collegiate. In Shirley Harrison's The Diary of Jack the Ripper (Hyperion, 1993), p. 19, it is simply noted, "James probably attended Liverpool College, like [brother] Michael [Maybrick], but records were lost during World War II." If you can find any information to deny or confirm the claim I would be most interested.

Chris

[TonyMay]

Hi All,

Paul: I think your thoughts on the diary are both fair and understandable. I am really interested though in hearing what evidence Keith Skinner will eventually put forward to link the diary to Battlecrease House. The more arguement I have heard from the anti-diary camp the more I believe in my theory that perhaps the diary we have is a transcript of sorts.
To head for cuckoo land here HA HA I have been reading a book by Pamela Ball lately. Keith Skinner was apparently also involved in a psychic investigation that she performed into the ripper case. Not one to hold a lot of weight with whjat psychics say, I cannot provide any proof to say that they are all fakes either. Interestingly in her book, Ball suggests that James Maybrick was responsible for the Stride murder but she does not feel he had a connection (directly) to the others. She DOES claim however that James seems to have KNOWLEDGE of the other murders. Intreguingly therefore, if any truth at all was in this story, the man whom we call Jack The Ripper may not only have been 2 people not one and quite possibly could have been the 'lookout' that chased Israel Schwartz away (if he did indeed see the man that did kill Stride). Ball comes to the conclusion about the diary that James Maybrick DID write about the murders but she says this was on 'piles of papers'. The diary she feels is a transcript made AFTER James's death by James Maybrick.....HIS SON.
Chris: Do you know of any existing examples of James Chandler Maybricks handwriting? Have these ever been compared to that which is in the diary?
I know this is all pretty 'pigs may fly' but I find it all kind of interesting in a fun way. Has anyone else on here ever had any dealings with a psychic? Can anyone vouch for them?

Maybrick aside, I do think that there is a distinct possibility that the murders may NOT in fact have been by the same hand. If this is true, it would help to explain why the police got nowhere with their investigations at the time and why we've not been able to sucessfully pin all the murders onto a single candidate since. How about, Tumblety did Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes, James Maybrick Elizabeth Stride, Joseph Barnett or George Hutchinson Mary Kelly and someone else Martha Tabram and or Polly Nichols!

All the best,

Tony.

[ChrisGeorge]

James Maybrick readily showed everyone that he was from Liverpool because he was wheeling one of Lewis's down the street.

[Paul Butler]

Hi Tony.

You’re asking the wrong man about Mediums I’m afraid. If I can’t see it , hear it or eat it I don’t believe it!!

Have you ever seen that awful fake programme “Most Haunted”? The Medium on that contacted both Florrie Maybrick and JTR himself once I recall. What a farce? JTR is apparently haunting the wrong part of town at the moment as they were in the basement of a West end theatre at the time.

Seriously I have read the book you refer to. I think I got it for a quid in one of those cheapo bookshops. I’m afraid I was unimpressed.

Whatever the diary is or isn’t, I’m sure the suggestion that it was copied from a pile of papers is at least correct. It’s just a shame we don’t know by whom or when quite yet.

Have you seen the Maybrick discussion over on JTR forums? Its positively civilised over there, and for the first time in years you can discuss things without having to wade through line after line of the same old repetative stuff repeated ad infinitum. It’s worth a look.

Hi Chris
Love the cartoon.

Paul

[TonyMay]

Hi Paul, Chris and Everyone!

Well, I've been away from here for a long time haven't I! Still, the JTR discussions can only go so far without new material to 'chew the cud over can't it'. I can confidently predict however that things will soon liven up considerably on that front (mark these words!!). Talking of Jack(poss James) I have been busy working on a lot of projects while I've been away. As well as recording and performing in a vocal group calleed Breeze (see www.fromsidleywithlove.com), I have recorded a solo album 'Songs From The End Of The Pier' and am currently in the process of recording a 'poetry album' called 'In Words, In Music'. The idea of the 'poetry' album is to finally make some use of a lot of the poems/short stories/prose that I have written over the years. My producer Harvey Summers and I have been trying to create a 'collage of words, sounds and music' to take the listener on an emotional journey. Anyway, one of the segments on the album is about Jack The Ripper. It's a three and a half minute piece called 'A Researchers Nightmare' and portrays the story of a guy's scary journey back to his hotel in Whitechapel in the dark after a long day's researching...his mind plays a few tricks on him I can tell you! I think followers of the case like yourselves will like it and find it fun. The albums not finished yet so it's not commercially available but I have offered it to Chris Jones for use on his James Maybrick website so it could appear there soon. I will keep you posted!

Well, hope you are all fine,

All the best,

Tony.

[ChrisGeorge]

Currently on ebay:

MRS. MAYBRICK'S OWN STORY: MY FIFTEEN LOST YEARS

by Florence Elizabeth Maybrick

Autograph Edition

NY: Funk & Wagnalls, 1905; pp 394 + halftone photo illustrations, bound in original blue cloth hardcover binding.

Signed by the author, Mrs. Maybrick, under her frontispiece photo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Florence-Maybric...QQcmdZViewItem

Excerpt from the description:

"James Maybrick was born on 24 October 1838 in the slums of Liverpool, Lancashire, the son of William Maybrick, an Engineer, and his wife, Susanna." (Emphasis added.)

-- I think the Maybricks might well have been surprised to know they lived in slums. Yes there were slums in Liverpool at the time but not at the downtown Liverpool location, off Church Street, where James was born.

Chris

[peter]

sorry to say that battlecrease house has been demolished and is now so called luxury apartments. personally i think its a disgrace and whoever sanctioned it should be taken across the road to the cricket club and used as wickets next time lancashire play there.

[ChrisGeorge]

sorry to say that battlecrease house has been demolished and is now so called luxury apartments. personally i think its a disgrace and whoever sanctioned it should be taken across the road to the cricket club and used as wickets next time lancashire play there.

What do you mean, Peter? It's the same house that has been there since the 1880's even if it is now apartments.

[jimmy]

sorry to say that battlecrease house has been demolished and is now so called luxury apartments. personally i think its a disgrace and whoever sanctioned it should be taken across the road to the cricket club and used as wickets next time lancashire play there.

Battlecrease house has been DEMOLISHED, and new luxury apartments built on the old site?

[Chris48]

Er I don't think it has been demolished.....well not up to a few months ago anyway. I'll check on that next time i'm passing. The Poste House issue seals it for me. A bit careless of the forger what! Aside from that, it was a tragic story and Florence Maybrick grew to be old and anonymous. She lived in squalid conditions when she moved back to the states and was eventually identified by a tag on an item of clothing that she sent to be cleaned with a neighbour. Luckilly the neighbour was kind enough not to reveal Florences true identity until she died. It also seems incredible that she was convicted of murder when, according to what i have read, Mr Maybrick used to sprinkle arsenic on his food as a flavour enhancer.

But what I find more incredible is that I worked as a cop in South Liverpool for 30 years. I passed Battlecrease House thousands of times and knew nothing of the Maybrick case until a few years ago. Liverpool History does not seem to be well documented or should I say, certain aspects of it doesn't. Thank goodness for Chris George.

[shoney]

[ Mr Maybrick used to sprinkle arsenic on his food as a flavour enhancer.

wonder if the wife would like it on her chips ?

[ChrisGeorge]

Er I don't think it has been demolished.....well not up to a few months ago anyway. I'll check on that next time i'm passing. The Poste House issue seals it for me. A bit careless of the forger what! Aside from that, it was a tragic story and Florence Maybrick grew to be old and anonymous. She lived in squalid conditions when she moved back to the states and was eventually identified by a tag on an item of clothing that she sent to be cleaned with a neighbour. Luckilly the neighbour was kind enough not to reveal Florences true identity until she died. It also seems incredible that she was convicted of murder when, according to what i have read, Mr Maybrick used to sprinkle arsenic on his food as a flavour enhancer.

But what I find more incredible is that I worked as a cop in South Liverpool for 30 years. I passed Battlecrease House thousands of times and knew nothing of the Maybrick case until a few years ago. Liverpool History does not seem to be well documented or should I say, certain aspects of it doesn't. Thank goodness for Chris George.

Thanks, Chris. I will defer to Richard Whittington-Egan whose books have helped to keep the memory of the Maybrick Case alive in the city.

Chris