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Thread: 3 tunnels under The Baltic Fleet Pub...

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    Goin' up up up The Teardrop Explodes's Avatar
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    Default 3 tunnels under The Baltic Fleet Pub...

    ...apparently.

    Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the

    basement.

    One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't quite remember the details of the third except to say that

    given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house victims of the slave-trade.

    Part of one of the tunnels

    is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


    Who runs the place now? At the time the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm

    intentions.


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    interesting....i can see the tunnel story working as the pub is very old and its location to

    the waterfront.
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    A.D.Williams
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Teardrop Explodes View Post
    ...apparently.

    Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then

    manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the basement.

    One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't

    quite remember the details of the third except to say that given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house

    victims of the slave-trade.

    Part of one of the tunnels is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


    Who runs the place now? At the time

    the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm intentions.
    As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a no-no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.Williams View Post
    As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a

    no-no.
    Aye well, that's what the bloke said was down there, I don't really know. He seemed pretty certain he'd seen these "shackles"

    anyway.

    As I remember the story one of the tunnels going up toward Ropeworks is/was thought to have run to another tavern, as I say in the Duke

    St-Wood St. area. I believe that hostelry no longer exists though.

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    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.Williams View Post
    As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a

    no-no.
    That could be another debate altogether. Its a few years since I've read it but i'm sure in "Liverpool Capital of the Slave Trade" by

    Gail Cameron and Steven Crooke there's pictures of adverts of slave sales in the city.

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    A.D.Williams
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    Why would the merchants bring the slaves back to Liverpool? The slave trade was a three legged journey. Goods sent to Africa were sold in

    exchange for slaves. The slaves were then transported to the West Indies to work on the plantations there. The sugar and tobacco were then transported back

    to Blighty.

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    "However much Liverpool supported the trade, slaves rarely set foot on soil here. Contary to folklore The Goree

    Piazzas, on the Dock Road, NEVER had slaves chained there. In fact, the Piazzas were built 11 years after courts ruled that every slave became free as soon

    as his feet touched English soil".



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    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    "However

    much Liverpool supported the trade, slaves rarely set foot on soil here. Contary to folklore The Goree Piazzas, on the Dock Road,

    NEVER had slaves chained there. In fact, the Piazzas were built 11 years after courts ruled that every slave became free as soon as his feet touched English

    soil".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/local...terfront.shtml
    "Rarely" is

    the keyword here.
    Which accounts for the occasional slave sale in Liverpool.

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    Senior Member SteH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.Williams View Post
    Why would the merchants bring the slaves back to Liverpool? The slave trade was a three legged journey. Goods sent to Africa were

    sold in exchange for slaves. The slaves were then transported to the West Indies to work on the plantations there. The sugar and tobacco were then

    transported back to Blighty.
    Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual

    sale. Scouse Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses

    in the 1760s in Water St and Old Churchyard

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteH View Post
    Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual sale. Scouse

    Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses in the 1760s

    in Water St and Old Churchyard
    Of the millions of Africans involved about 60,000 passed through Liverpool, which is a very small to the

    overall numbers. What is a "Scouse Press publication"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteH View Post
    That could be another debate altogether. Its a few years since I've read it but i'm sure in "Liverpool Capital of the Slave

    Trade" by Gail Cameron and Steven Crooke there's pictures of adverts of slave sales in the city.
    Some of the sales may have been for slaves

    that were elsewhere, not in the city.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteH View Post
    Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual sale. Scouse

    Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses in the 1760s

    in Water St and Old Churchyard
    Some ships through one reason or another ended up with holds full of slaves back in Liverpool. Many

    unintentionally.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    What is a "Scouse Press publication"?
    See www.scousepress.co.uk

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    Hi all

    These legendary tunnels

    feature in numerous stories about a lot of locations throughout the British Isles. In the case of Williamson's tunnels, those were actual but I am not sure

    about other tunnels in other places. The old inn at Liscard, Mother Redcap's, for instance, was said to have a tunnel used by smugglers that ran all the

    way to the Red Noses west of New Brighton. Now that's a distance of several miles so it is doubtful if such tunnel ever actually existed. More likely the

    idea that Mother Redcap's was a smuggler's inn and the Red Noses a place frequented by smugglers or wreckers to hide their booty somehow got fused in the

    popular imagination. I have a poem, "Return to Mother Redcap's," on Mike Kemble's Wallasey

    site.


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    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    Contary to folklore The Goree Piazzas, on the Dock Road, NEVER had slaves chained

    there.
    The iron rings that were affixed to the walls of the Goree Piazza warehouse were to secure the goods/cargo's stored outside the walls,

    overnight, and waiting for storage space to be freed up inside the building. Very few slaves, relative to the numbers carried in Liverpool bottoms, were

    sold in Liverpool markets, but the myth persists.
    Last edited by Sloyne; 11-05-2006 at 05:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Some ships through one reason or another ended

    up with holds full of slaves back in Liverpool. Many unintentionally.
    Not so sure about this. Ships leaving Goree and other West African Coast ports

    had lots of options for discharging thier human gargo's between the West African coast and Liverpool. Cadiz, Lisbon, Oporto, Santander, Balboa or even the

    passage to the Portuguese markets on the Cape Verde Islands, not to mention Bristol, or the many English Channel ports and numerous Mediteranean ports were

    all options, rather than Liverpool. Even allowing for an average 30% attrition rate (figures for the middle passage) which is not likely on the shorter

    voyage to Europe, I don't where the market would be, in North West England, for between 150 and 170 Africans.

  17. #17
    MissInformed
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    Quote Originally Posted by The

    Teardrop Explodes;23387
    ...apparently.

    Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the

    basement.

    One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't quite remember the details of the third except to say that

    given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house victims of the slave-trade.

    Part of one of the tunnels

    is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


    Who runs the place now? At the time the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm

    intentions.

    ...........to get back to the original thread!! any more info on the tunnels?


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    Senior Member Howie's Avatar
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    See

    BBC - Liverpool - Coast - Stage 8 - Salthouse

    Dock

    Underneath the pub there are caverns and cellars and stories abound of a tunnel running from the pubs cellar to the docks, through which

    in the days of the Press Gang men would be captured in pubs. According to the legend Press Gangs would get men drunk and then take them through the tunnels

    and aboard the ships to work, they would wake up with a sore head and aboard a ship in open sea.

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    See also DESKTOP PUB -

    Gallery

    Ben Flynn told us of his time at the Baltic fleet - "I used to work there in the mid seventies. When I started there were all

    these chains in the cellar and these tunnels underground. There were rumours about the cellars being used to chain up unfortunates who were shanghaied and

    taken onto the ships in the nearby docks. And more rumours that Pirates had used the tunnels to smuggle things into the country. But we never did find out

    what the chains were actually used for!"
    "When there was a high tide the cellar sometimes flooded! We had to have all planks and barriers in the way

    down there, and it must have filled with water about twice a year before we got it blocked off in the end."

    Now there is a microbrewery in the Baltic

    Fleet basement.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloyne View Post
    Not so sure about this. Ships leaving Goree and other West African Coast ports had lots of options for discharging thier human gargo's

    between the West African coast and Liverpool. Cadiz, Lisbon, Oporto, Santander, Balboa or even the passage to the Portuguese markets on the Cape Verde

    Islands, not to mention Bristol, or the many English Channel ports and numerous Mediteranean ports were all options, rather than Liverpool. Even allowing for

    an average 30% attrition rate (figures for the middle passage) which is not likely on the shorter voyage to Europe, I don't where the market would be, in

    North West England, for between 150 and 170 Africans.
    Many were already sold, they just eneded up in Liverpool, and eventually in the

    Caribbean.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Many were already sold, they just eneded

    up in Liverpool, and eventually in the Caribbean.
    Perhaps so, I wouldn't have any knowledge of that. I do, however, know from the accessible archives

    located in the Central/Picton Library in Liverpool and Liverpool University that, very few Africans, between 1619, the acknowledged year that modern European

    slavery from Africa started until the abolition by Britain in 1833, very few Africans, in comparison to those carried in Liverpool ships, were sold into

    bondage in Liverpool it's self.

    I know some, for whatever reason, would like the history of Liverpool and it's involvement in the trade in human

    misery to be more complicit than it already is. Perhaps there are other sources that I have overlooked that shed light on your claim. I would be grateful if

    you could pass the information, and it's source, along, your information might fill in some gaps in my own incomplete knowledge of the subject. Thanks in

    advance.

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    Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near

    to the River front:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	windmill.jpg 
Views:	245 
Size:	133.2 KB 
ID:	164   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tunnels.jpg 
Views:	237 
Size:	99.0 KB 
ID:	165  
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  23. #23
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near to the River

    front:
    Where did you get those pics, Kev?
    I don't think I've seen them before, but I'd guess St James Mount for the first one, and Mason

    Street for the second.
    Can anyone confirm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Tunnels obvious in these attachments.

    Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near to the River front:
    Tunnels okay, but connecting to where?

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  25. #25
    MissInformed
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    do you all think that the owner of the baltic fleet wouldn't mind one of us going down into the 'so called tunnels' to clear this up??

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
    do you all think that the owner of the baltic fleet wouldn't mind one of us going down into the 'so called tunnels' to clear this up??
    ask, i thought that whilst driving past. suppose you have got to be cheeky some times
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  27. #27
    MissInformed
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    i think we should send one if the main men in tunnel snap shottery down there....nudge nudge...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipG View Post
    I don't think I've seen them before, but I'd guess St James Mount for the first one, and Mason Street for the second.
    Can anyone confirm?
    They're excellent historic pictures. I'm 99% sure you're right on both counts. The second one can't be anywhere else but Mason St/Smithdown Lane.

    As for the Baltic tunnels... Somebody mentioned to me about tunnels in the basement of the Heap Rice Mill, which would tie in with the Baltic Fleet stories. I've been in the mill basement twice, but didn't find anything, although that was before I heard about the tunnels so I wasn't really looking.


  29. #29
    MissInformed
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    great pic....
    would be interesting to see the baltic fleet ones, if they do exist...

  30. #30
    PhilipG
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    Now that they've demolished the Fire Station at Canning Place (the one with the white mosaic walls) some interesting big blocks of masonry stones are on the site, obviously from much older buildings.
    Also visible are tunnels (sorry about that, they're probably cellars!).

    Sorry if I'm off-topic.

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