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Thread: Liverpool docks in 1862

  1. #16
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soreofhing View Post
    ChrisGeorge wrote:
    "a plot idea for you might be to have your South America-bound vessel stopped by a U.S. Navy vessel whose commander might suspect the ship is headed across the Atlantic with supplies for the Rebels."

    Chris, I understand the Liverpool/South America route was Liverpool, Lisbon, Cape Verde Islands, then down to Rio in the Argentine, and on to Montevideo in Uruguay.
    Would the Yankees have been so far east?
    regards
    They sunk one Confederate ship in a Brazilian port - built in Liverpool. The CCS Alabama was sunk off Cherburg in France by USS Kersarge. The Union sent a ship over to intercept the Erica (CSS Alabama) when it reached international waters out of the Mersey in the Irish Sea. The Alabama hid in Anglesey and slipped out via Ulster and Scotland.

    South American bound ships may have gone via the Caribbean depending on the cargo destinations. They went via Lisbon and the Azores.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soreofhing View Post
    ChrisGeorge wrote:
    "a plot idea for you might be to have your South America-bound vessel stopped by a U.S. Navy vessel whose commander might suspect the ship is headed across the Atlantic with supplies for the Rebels."

    Chris, I understand the Liverpool/South America route was Liverpool, Lisbon, Cape Verde Islands, then down to Rio in the Argentine, and on to Montevideo in Uruguay.
    Would the Yankees have been so far east?
    regards

    Hi Soreofhing

    Ships of the U.S. Navy historically have operated everywhere in the world. One of the battles of the War of 1812 was off St. David's Head in Wales when HMS Pelican defeated USS Argus, a brig commanded by Lt. William Henry Allan on August 14, 1813. See Capture of USS Argus. Allan and another officer who was mortally wounded in the battle are buried in Plymouth. Another famous battle was that between USS Essex and the British frigate HMS Cherub and the sloop HMS Phoebe off Valparaiso, Chile, on March 20, 1814, discussed at USS Essex Engages HMS Phoebe. The led to the capture of American Commodore David Porter and his crew. One of the midshipmen on board was David Farragut, a foster son of the commodore's and later a Civil War Admiral in the Federal service.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  3. #18
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Hi Soreofhing,

    Thanks for sharing a chapter of your book - I'm sure lots of the members here will take great interest in reading it. And hopefully you'll get some constructive criticism on some of the details you were inquiring about, in your OP?

    Bolton Street, Liverpool:
    "Chapter 2 1847, Bolton Street, Liverpool
    The steam whistle screamed and he knew it was time to get up. It must be five o?clock already.
    Every morning was the same. That was the trouble of living ?round the corner from the station---the constant chuff, chuff, chuff of the steam engines and the slamming of carriage doors. The piercing whistles. The smoke?thick, black and choking, it descended on all the buildings and people like big, sooty snowflakes."
    Fourteen years earlier [1833], it would have been the sound of Cattle drovers, and cattle stock, as they moved to market. Lime Street Station was built on land purchased from the council for ?9,000, the site of a former Cattle Market in 1833 [full reference here.] Lime Street was one of the first public railways to open in the country [in Aug 1836] to the paying public. So if you wanted to, you could contrast this, as an illustration of the speed in which people's lives changed within the industrial revolution [1750-1850] landscape?

    Bolton Street is featured on Jonithan Bennison's 1835 map of Liverpool, which can be viewed at the leverpoole web site here. Lime Street Station didn't open to the public until August l836. The map view above shown here. shows the Cattle Market market, numbered "94" [I think?]

    ------

    Chris's comments above, about the 'modern' attitude to his wife. Well, certainly the commentator's voice [yours] can be modern, in telling the tale, and perhaps this is how you deal with the difference in moral values over the 160 year span the novel bridges? As illustration Her Benny, by Silas Hocking, [pub. 1879 - which you can downloaded free, as a pdf below.] offers the contrasting kindness of Joe Wragg [the night watchman], with that of Benny's violent and dunken father Richard Bates "Come out here, you young vermin; quick! do you hear?" It might be worth consulting on the following link: http://www.archive.org/details/herbenny00hockgoog

    Also the Liverpool History Society has a great online resource, with much of the material downloadable free as a pdf, or text file. Link as follows: http://www.liverpoolhistorysociety.org.uk/olbooks.html

    ------

    Well, Soreofhing, good work, so far, descriptive and atmospheric, and moves along at a nice pace. If you have anymore, we'd be happy to review for you, in what ever capacity we can help?

    Many thanks again.

    Daz

  4. #19
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhowe View Post
    Yes, great stuff mate. Enjoyed it greatly and wanted to read more...

    Unlike Chris, I didn't mind the interactions between man and woman- running his hand through his wife's hair was a nice touch and early on sets Joe up as a 'decent bloke'...

    I felt there was a bit too much padding though... "a strong muscular man" etc..
    The food adulteration bit was interesting but too long. KISS is the golden rule of gripping fiction (and much else)- "Keep It Simple Stupid"... haha- your yarn's got a long way to go yet and you don't want to wear your reader out with excessive detail.

    Get the whole book sketched up in very basic form- the skeleton upon which the muscles and flesh will later hang. The details will come later. Get the characters nailed down- you've done a good job with Joe; we feel like we know him already. Keep it coming!

    All very inspiring though, almost makes me want to blow the dust off some of my unfinished yarns!
    Hi Steve

    It's not that I object to interactions between the man and woman. They should be in the book. It's just that I feel that in a historical novel, one should try to avoid ideas that reflect modern ideas about relationships. That is for example, maybe the man should not be as "sensitive" as we men are today. If you see what I mean.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  5. #20

    Default Liverpool docks in 1862

    All these comments are valuable for me. Thanks.
    My g.g.grandfather was a cotton porter and lived in Bolton Street (he was a Joe, but not Chapman), so when I made my excursion to 'pool 2 years ago I went to see that street. Clean but grotty now, must have been pretty grim in 1851 when he lived there.
    Does the "chuff, chuff, chuff" sound corny?
    After 40 years of pronouncing Thornton Hough as "how" I was gobsmacked in 2007 to learn that it's pronounced "huff"!
    Have a drink in the Seven Stars for me.
    cheers

  6. #21
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soreofhing View Post
    All these comments are valuable for me. Thanks.
    My g.g.grandfather was a cotton porter and lived in Bolton Street (he was a Joe, but not Chapman), so when I made my excursion to 'pool 2 years ago I went to see that street. Clean but grotty now, must have been pretty grim in 1851 when he lived there.
    Does the "chuff, chuff, chuff" sound corny?
    After 40 years of pronouncing Thornton Hough as "how" I was gobsmacked in 2007 to learn that it's pronounced "huff"!
    Have a drink in the Seven Stars for me.
    cheers
    Hi Soreofhing

    The "chuff, chuff, chuff" for the sound of the steam engines is fine. Realistic, true to life, helps us visualize the scene.

    The pronunciation of names is tricky. It's hard to explain to Americans how Warwick could be pronounced Worrick and not War-wick (as in the American singer's name) or Cholmondeley could be pronounced Chummly.

    There's a supposed Jack the Ripper victim named Rose Mylett and I was pronouncing her name the way I saw it, Mile-ett, but I have been told that the correct pronunciation is "Millett".

    In the Chesapeake Bay there is a small island called Poole's Island which is said to be a version of it's original name, Powell's Island, said to have got its name from a crewmember on board Captain John Smith's vessel exploring the bay in the early 17th century. Now in an article on placenames I was reading this morning the writer said the British pronunciation of "Powell" is "Pole" -- I am not sure that is so... maybe it's pronounced that way by the plummy-sounding upper classes but I would pronounce it the way it looks.

    All the best

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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  7. #22

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    Hi Soreofhing,

    sorry if I'm skimming but if your novel is referring to Lime Street station in 1847 then I'm sure there would be no steam engine noises as I think passenger coaches were still hauled up to Edge Hill by rope, where they then had the Steam engines attached.

    I think I read that this practice went on until the 1870's when steam engines were powerful enough to do the climb.

    Anyway, I just wanted to thank Waterways for referring to the Melville book Redburn. Its a great little read.



    Thanks.

  8. #23
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi again soreofhing

    We haven't yet mentioned the book Stan Hugill, Sailortown (London, 1967) which has been characterised as 'A great collection of tall stories, but also contains plausible descriptions of the maritime districts of several seaports including Liverpool'. A Liverpool government pdf lists this and other sources. You can find it at http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-98218.pdf

    All the best

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
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  9. #24

    Default Lime Street Station 1847

    Oh dear, Goldenface, I seem to have made a major blunder.
    I've looked up a bit and you are right.The carriages from Lime St. were hauled up to Edge Hill by steam driven winches; the return was by gravity, controlled by brakemen (sounds a bit dicey, that).
    So no steam whistles, no smoke, no clanging.
    What noises would there have been at Lime St. in 1847?
    I'll have to rewrite that bit.
    Thanks a lot. I feel pretty stupid, but better now than in the future.
    Suppose I shouldn't feel too bad though, I've found a mistake in one of Ken Follett's books; but there again, to comfort oneself by pointing out the mistakes of others, is the comfort of fools.
    Hope everyone has a really Happy Christmas. I hear you are all suffering with snow these days. Where I live, the sun is really hot today!

  10. #25

    Question Passenger ships from Buenos Aires to Valparaiso 1862

    Hello there
    It's me again.
    I left off my book for a few months then had a lot of work but now, what with the disastrous economic situation, my work has dried up...so I'm writing again.
    It's November 1862 and my heroes are leaving Buenos Aires for Vaparaiso via the Falkland Islands on a sailing ship. It must be a sailing vessel for a secret reason.
    I've searched and searched the web looking for the name of a suitable vessel which made that run but can't find a one. Seems the Pacific Steamship Company covered this route but my vessel must be a sailing ship.
    Doesn't have to be British ship.
    Any suggestions.
    Best regards

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soreofhing View Post
    Oh dear, Goldenface, I seem to have made a major blunder.
    So no steam whistles, no smoke, no clanging.
    What noises would there have been at Lime St. in 1847?
    I'll have to rewrite that bit.
    Thanks a lot. I feel pretty stupid, but better now than in the future.
    !
    Not sure. I have read that there were horses kept on the station which were used to tow the rolling stock around station tracks and they worked in pairs, probably worked by a gang of men.

    I think the station around that time was being remodelled, (I think the first huge arched iron train shed was erected in 1849) so I would imagine a lot of rock cutting and construction was going on in preparation. Chiselling, hammering, horses carting away rock etc.

    Hope this helps.


  12. #27
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    1848-64 OS map of Lime Street Station. The map was originally surveyed in 1848. Engraved in 1850. The railways were updated in 1864, which are present in this revision. An older revision of this map c.1850's may still exist, showing the earlier development of the station?

    Still, this shows the undeveloped land between Skelhorne Street and the station. I believe James Newlands map shows an earlier Lime Street station.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #28
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soreofhing View Post
    Hello there
    It's me again.
    I left off my book for a few months then had a lot of work but now, what with the disastrous economic situation, my work has dried up...so I'm writing again.
    It's November 1862 and my heroes are leaving Buenos Aires for Vaparaiso via the Falkland Islands on a sailing ship. It must be a sailing vessel for a secret reason.
    I've searched and searched the web looking for the name of a suitable vessel which made that run but can't find a one. Seems the Pacific Steamship Company covered this route but my vessel must be a sailing ship.
    Doesn't have to be British ship.
    Any suggestions.
    Best regards
    Hi Soreofhing

    You don't need to apologize for making the ship in your story a sailing vessel. I would be prepared to bet that in the 1860's there were still many more sailing ships than steamers or hybrid steamer/sailing ships on the high seas. I have been interested in a Jack the Ripper suspect named John Anderson who was a sailor on a bark named the Annie Speer sailing to South America when he died in 1895 before making a deathbed confession. He was supposedly buried in the necropolis in Iqueque, Chile.

    Here's another example of a sailing vessel as late the 1890's on the South American run:

    The Potosi was a five-masted steel barque built in 1895 by the German sailing ship company F. Laeisz as a trading vessel. As its shipping route was between Germany and Chile, it was designed to be capable of withstanding the rough weather encountered around Cape Horn.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
    Editor, Ripperologist
    Editor, Loch Raven Review
    http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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  14. #29
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Soreofhing

    You don't need to apologize for making the ship in your story a sailing vessel. I would be prepared to bet that in the 1860's there were still many more sailing ships than steamers or hybrid steamer/sailing ships on the high seas. I have been interested in a Jack the Ripper suspect named John Anderson who was a sailor on a bark named the Annie Speer sailing to South America when he died in 1895 before making a deathbed confession. He was supposedly buried in the necropolis in Iqueque, Chile.
    As late as 1929, they were still sailing on great 'square riggers'....there used to be a fantastic bit of footage on YouTube [taken off since due to copyright issues] in which Irving Johnson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Johnson filmed the barque Peking rounding the horn. Even includes a funeral service at sea of one of the young sailor's who fell from the yards.

  15. #30
    Senior Member gorgeous's Avatar
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    Well i'm hooked already
    I love it ,, the only thing i picked up on that i thought was wrong was the noise of the trains ,
    My ggrandparents also lived in Bolton St

    Good luck
    Can't wait for the rest
    Karen
    Karen

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