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Thread: The Fifth Beatle

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    Member baloffski's Avatar
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    Default The Fifth Beatle

    First go at writing anything, so be as brutal as you want. They say we all have a good book inside waiting to be written; well this is my attempt at getting some feedback on whether to bother or not! (Sorry if it is a bit long, you should have seen the first draft!)


    The Real Fifth Beatle

    Since the day that four lads from Liverpool exploded onto the world stage, an argument has raged about who merits the title of ?fifth? Beatle. Many commentators are adamant that the title should be awarded to producer George Martin. After all, he was the man who took the rough hewn writing talent that was the Lennon and McCartney partnership (with a sprinkling of George Harrison), and added a fine veneer in the studio. His influence was crucial in the studio, where his classical background and vast experience of other genres made a big difference in the marketability of the bands music. It was Sir George as he is now dubbed, who suggested that instead of the standard three guitar and drum kit line-up, a full string orchestra be used as the backing for what has become the worlds most played song, ?Yesterday?. He also had a very strong influence in the use of what was then leading edge technology in the groundbreaking Sgt Pepper album, which, even today is still regularly credited by writers and artists as a major influence.


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    What about ?Our Eppy? as John Lennon irreverently referred to manager Brian Epstein? He was the man who saw beyond the leather jackets and tight jeans of the early rebellious Beatles and recognised a huge talent. He transformed their act from the one performed in the seedy bars of Hamburg. He put them in suits, made them bow at the end of performances and despite having no experience of managing a band, sorted out a record deal. This he managed to do even after being told by a high powered executive at the highly influential Decca studio, not to waste his time as guitar bands were on the way out. So arguably, had he not descended into the ?Cellar Full of Noise? which was the Cavern Club, we would have still been listening to imported American music, churned out to whatever the latest winning formula was currently in vogue at the major labels.

    But both of these worthy candidates came onto the scene after the band had already evolved into a four piece. They were of course a five piece in the Hamburg days and therefore the only true holder of the title Fifth Beatle is Stuart Sutcliffe.

    As well as the fifth, Stu should probably be correctly dubbed the Reluctant Beatle. He wasn?t really a musician, and nobody could say his heart was really in it 100%; but he became great friends with one John Winston Lennon after they were both accepted into the Liverpool Arts School and the strong character of Lennon soon sucked Stuart into the music world

    While Lennon amused himself and a good many of his following at the college with his cartoons and merciless lampooning of authority figures, Sutcliffe was being hailed by his tutors as a prodigious talent in the field of modern art. It was the proceeds of this talent, in the form of a picture sold for ?60 at the nationally renowned John Moore?s Exhibition in 1959, which funded the purchase of a bass guitar, so he could join John?s band. There was a collective sigh of relief, closely followed by universal dismay from the college tutors when the unruly Lennon dropped out of college, but had also managed to convince their great hope to accompany him on a tour playing the bars and clubs in the German port of Hamburg.

    Stu soon established himself as the ultra cool, mystery man in black of the line up. Always dressed in black jeans and a black leather jacket over a white T-shirt in the popular James Dean style, He stayed at the back of the stage, impassively veiled behind dark glasses and often playing with his back to the audience. This unbeknown to the audience, was not part of the uber cool image, but more an attempt to mask the fact that he could only manage a few chords. The trickier bass guitar parts usually fell to Paul McCartney, who later in the bands career famously made the part his own with the left handed Hoffner Violin Bass Guitar.

    This inevitably caused friction between Paul, the driving force of the band, and John who some say regarded himself as the leader. Events though were about to take place which would suit both Stuarts art tutors and McCartney very nicely. Playing in Hamburg?s Reeperbahn area, the loud rock and roll of the British boys caught the interest of a young German called Klaus Voorman (who later went on to design the cover of the Beatles album Revolver). Klaus was known as one of the Existentialists or ?Exis? who were very popular in Hamburg at the time. Impressed, he returned to the club with other friends including fellow artist Jurgen Vollmer and photographer Astrid Kircherr. Returning most nights with ever more friends to be converted; and always inviting the band members to their table for a drink during one of their infrequent breaks, it was agreed that Astrid would take a series of publicity shots of the band, who at the time were trying to secure a record deal with the legendary A and R man Bert Kampfaert. They decided that a photographic portfolio might help their cause considerably by presenting themselves to him in as professional a manner as they could. The black and white photographs are now seen as the definitive images of the bands time in Hamburg as they forged their trade.

    It was inevitable that Stuart and Astrid would be drawn together as kindred spirits by their love of, and talents in, their chosen art forms; and that this would soon blossom into a passionate love affair. Stu became even less interested in the band and was often absent from the line-up for extended periods. This absence famously included the first ever recording session by the Beatles, arranged by Kampfaert, as backing group to singer Tony Sheridan, and where they also recorded some tracks in their own right.

    It is said in some quarters that the decision to sack Stu from the band and his resignation coincided exactly. What is known though, is that Stuart had, with the encouragement of Astrid applied for and been accepted by the Hamburg Art School on the recommendation of Eduardo Paolozzi the eminent art professor and internationally famous sculptor. Stuart had by this time moved into Astrid?s apartment and had converted one of the rooms into a studio for his painting, where he set about producing work which has since been greatly acclaimed, culminating in his own exhibition at the College.

    Tragically the world was never to see how the talent would have developed as Stuart Sutcliffe died of a massive brain haemorrhage after collapsing in his studio in April 1962. There have been a number of theories regarding the cause of the problem. Some spectators subscribe to the notion an altercation Stuart and John Lennon were involved in, where Stu was rendered unconscious in a Liverpool alleyway, led to a weakness in the brain. Others expound that the abuse of the stimulant drug Preludin, taken by the band to keep them going during their marathon sets on stage was to blame. The latest theories relate to the time bomb of a cerebral aneurism. Whatever the cause, the impact on both John Lennon and Astrid Kircherr was massive. John formed very few emotional attachments to people during his life and the loss of Stuart was a heavy blow to him, especially coming relatively soon after the loss of the mother he was in the process of rediscovering, after spending most of his childhood living with his Aunt Mimi.

    Astrid became a virtual recluse dedicating herself to her photography, though ironically she lost the rights to her most famous work. She has rarely but always very poignantly, spoken of the enduring love she has for Stuart and the utter devastation at his early demise. Astrid was present when the world famous Walker Art Gallery in Liverpool unveiled one of Stuart?s paintings and has often visited the city of Stuarts birth. She still lives in Hamburg.

    In 1999 Channel four films commissioned a film ?Backbeat? which followed the story of Stuart and Astrid?s love affair, starring Steven Dorff and Cheryl Lee as the star crossed pair. The film used deposed Beatles drummer Pete Best as an advisor and this ensures that apart from some artistic licence, it is a reasonably accurate account of those heady days at the turn of the decade. Astrid also visited the set and has been quoted as saying that they ?stuck to the facts and also the emotions?. She also remarked on how shocked she had been when first encountering Dorff? in character as Stuart, given the likeness.

    It would be folly to speculate what would have happened had Stuart not been cut down so early in his life. But it would seem that the storm his former band mates caused in the music scene could well have been mirrored by Stuart in the world of modern art. What would the Fab Five have achieved? Could there have been a role for a mean and moody moptop? We will never know.

    So now, if you ever get embroiled in the fifth Beatle argument, you can say that the position was never open to candidates as it had already been filled in the early days by a young lad from Liverpool. One who found a new life in Hamburg and died tragically early, cruelly taken such a young age from the art and the woman he loved so passionately.

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    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Nice one Balofski.

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    A great piece and any Beatles fanatic is a good egg as far as i'm concerned, however. No mention of another ex member - Pete Best. He is intrinsically linked with the Beatles forever as he was not only their drummer pre Ringo but played on enough recorded tracks in order to earn him a nice pay day when the Anthology 1 disc and film was released. In fact in the 1962 Cavern appearance which was recorded for Granada TV where they played 'Some Other Guy', fans can be heard at the end chanting 'We want Pete - We want Pete'. Ringo had only just replaced him.

    His mother's club The Casbah was also a regular haunt even pre Cavern and Mona went on to have a child to roadie Neil Aspinall who later became a big cheese at Apple.

    It is also a myth about the selling of the painting to finance the buying of the guitar. Merseybeat owner Bill Harry still has a copy of the slip showing the guitar was bought on the drip (h.p.)

    All in all, I don't think Pete or Stu were with the group long enough or during the most important part of their reign to influence the outcome. For that it has to be between Epstein and Martin and even Epstein made bad marketing mistakes. I would go for George Martin I think.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    John Lennon stated that Martin had no influence on the Beatles. He was the producer, a techie, who knew how to lay down the tracks and give a sound which the Beatles requested. His claim to fame before the Beatles was producing Nelly The Elephant. It was more like the Beatles made him.

    Pete Best? The unluckiest man in history. Well until royalties from Anthology came in and he was made an millionaire 30 years after being ditched. He was sacked after 2 years being full time drummer with the band, as the first proper recordings were to commence, even attending Abbey Rd studios. Neil Aspinall, a manager/road manger, was going to resign after hearing of the sacking, but Best persuaded him to stay after a pint in the Grapes.

    Best was got rid of because of a misunderstanding. Martin wanted a sessions drummer to record in the studio, which was the norm for all bands in those days. Martin hired Tommy White, who played on Please Please Me on the LP issued in the USA, not the single. They would have a professional drummer who would know how the recording sessions went and drummed to recording ways, not blast out like in dance halls, as the recording had to be right as it would be listened to by 1000s of people over and over again. The normal drummer would play in live gigs as it never mattered. Martin never said get rid of Pete Best at all and told him so a few times.

    Epstein interpreted Martin's comments about getting in a sessions drummer as that Best was not up to it. He then put it to the three of them who agreed he must go as Martin said so, as Best may be a hindrance to retaining the recording sessions and quality of the recordings. So they got in Ringo who they knew and had filled in for Best occasionally, and was also friend of Best. They thought Ringo a better drummer. The difference was marginal. Ringo could not do drum rolls, and still can't. Best could. McCartney was not too fussed on Best, who was the good looking one and the girls went for. He was all too eager to put in the dig and emphatic he must go. Also, Pete Best's mother had a child to Neil Aspinall a month before the first recordings. This was a bit embarrassing and may have influenced the hasty exit.

    One man who was used and abused by the band, but had a great influence and played in many Beatle songs in minor ways, was Mal Evans, the road manager, who was a former GPO engineer and doorman of the Cavern. He was paid buttons by the band, the equivalent of 400 today, promised royalties but never received any. He ended up producing songs after the band split up, after years being with the Beatles in the studio learning the ropes. He discovered the band Badfinger and brought them to the Apple label.

    Mal is seen in the film Let it Be talking to the police as they entered the Apple office. He was 6 foot 6 inches tall and wore thick rimmed back glasses. He was shot dead by Los Angles police in 1976. They thought he had a rifle.

    If there was a 5th Beatle is was Mal Evans.
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    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    Astrid Kircherr also became pennyless. A friend of mine was a good friend of Stuarts at Art college. He was never cut out for a life in Rock and Roll and his talents were obviously in art.

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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    baloffski,

    Well done, that reads just fine.

    If I may make so bold...

    The big change in the Beatles was a deeply personal one, the fifth Beatle then is...Timothy Leary, no?

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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    I enjoyed reading that baloffski
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Waterways, it was Andy White not Tommy and he was brought into replace Ringo on Love me do, not Best, it wasn't any misunderstanding, do you not think that would have been clarified and rectified. The Beatles were there own men, even having the cheek to demand that only their compositions were used for singles when 'How do you do it' was offered as a follow up to Love me do - no one in the industry at the time starting out as rough scallywags like them had the brass neck to demand that.

    Read this about George Martin. Parlophone was in its infancy, Martin crafted it into his own, the piano solo on Lovely Rita, the circus instrumentation on Mr Kite, the scored string arrangements on Yesterday and Eleanor Rigby to name but a few contributions cannot be overlooked. Remember how the Let it be twickenham studios filming and soundtrack was fraught with bickering and how Glyn Johns brought in to produce it and Phil Spector to beef it up with his wall of sound caused friction after Martin was overlooked for it. Something they were to regret. What happened next. McCartney said they should all make another studio album and contacted Martin. He agreed only on the proviso that it would be done like in the old days. What materialised, one of their best albums ever and probably one of the best all time albums ever which is always in the top 10 in polls - Abbey Road.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Martin


    Mal Evans could have walked away at any point if he was ever feeling used and abused couldn't he. He played Anvil on Maxwell's Silver Hammer as well as lending backing vocals to Yellow Submarine.
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    Hi Baloffski,
    That was a very good read,you made it interesting and had no axe to grind. Write some more kid,there are a lot here who will enjoy it if it is of the same standard as this,
    BrianD

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Ge, yep Andy not Tommy, I was thinking of Tommy Moore who was the drummer before Best and left because he couldn't stand John Lennon. One of the locals near me is an old sound man, he still works on demand, and was a good friend of Andy - I live within yards of Abbey Rd studios. A number of years ago I was on the 159 bus from West Hampstead, which goes down Abbey Rd, and I noticed George Martin sitting opposite me. A Peruvian combo got on the bus and started playing and holding out the hat. I said to him, "the Beatles they are not", he started to laugh.

    There are a few stories of what happened. Andy was hired and as far as he was concerned he was the drummer on a recording session as per usual, not replacing anyone.

    It was a complete misunderstanding by Epstein, not knowing what was the normal thing in those days - you always got in a sessions drummer who knows the studio ways and can work with the producer and sound engineers. As I said, Martin clarified it with Best a few times as he never said replace him. Martin said, "he [Best] seemed to be the most saleable commodity as far as looks went. It was a surprise when I learned that they had dropped Pete. The drums were important to me for a record, but they didn?t matter much otherwise. Fans don?t pay particular attention to the quality of the drumming".

    Andy White was surprised that the Beatles were writing their own songs at the first recording session, as that sort of thing never happened. Martin was reasonably green to pop music and he probably needed them as much as they needed him. The Beatles were their own men and confidence grew once they had their foot in the recording door. In those days you had to be good to have a recording session - it is the other way around now, as recording equipment is so cheap.

    George Martin provided what the Beatles asked for in instrumentals, as he was more in line with that and how the effects can be got. Do not underestimate the sound men on those records who do not get much credit at all and produced what Martin asked for.

    Twickenham was chosen as it was large so the film cameras could move around.

    Mal Evans could have walked away, as could have anyone and a few nearly did. However that is not the point. Evans played all sorts of simple instruments on many songs and added to the words of songs. He was also a calming figure amongst them and was the do everything man (the gofor) in just about everything and anything. Martin's relationship was a professional one, while Mal's was both professional and personal. He was with them all the way through from beginning to end.

    When the Beatles hired Klein as manager he instantly sacked Aspinall and Evans, probably wanting to stamp his authority. The Beatles immediately re-instated them.

    Use wiki only as an overview of anything. I have found many glaring errors in it and when you attempt to rectify them probably a teenager who clearly can't write, reverts the edits. A bit of a waste of time.
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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Tommy Moore told me he liked John Lennon. Tommy was one of my dads best mates. He said he left the band as his girlfriend then was giving him grief about being in it. He never regretted it and was made up for them.

    He died on the same day as Bill Shankly. Only 11 people attended his funeral. Yes 11 more than 11 have written about him in books.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Tommy Moore told me he liked John Lennon. Tommy was one of my dads best mates. He said he left the band as his girlfriend then was giving him grief about being in it. He never regretted it and was made up for them.

    He died on the same day as Bill Shankly. Only 11 people attended his funeral. Yes 11 more than 11 have written about him in books.
    Amazing. Many put it down to a personality clash. Did he live around North Hill St at one time? He wasn't with the Beatles long and he left them.
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    Dont know about North Hill street. He mentioned Smithdown Lane.

    He was living on the Belle Vale estate at the time of his death. He did say Lennon could be a right pain at times, but also that he would do anything for anyone. He said the girl he was with was nuts and once when he came home from a gig she attacked him. he had scratch marks on his face and bumps where she had hit him with things. He said that was enough and he gave the band up. They tried to talk him round but he said no. I can only say what he told me, I have no idea about what is written in books?

    Funny thing is that he never stayed with the girl. But he was never bitter towards the band and was a real fan of theirs. He took me to my first Beatles convention at the Adelphi Hotel.

    He had a drum kit in his flat and he could really play, it was great to watch him. I think it was George Harrison who once said that Tommy was the best drummer they ever had?

    He was a really nice guy who had a big influence on me, not about the Beatles I mean about life. I was totally gutted when he died. I can still remember my dad sobbing. so sad.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    I recall a 1970s Granada TV spot on a drummer who once played with the Beatles as an infill I think. He lived around North Hill St at the time of the interview. He said he didn't like John Lennon, or was it that he couldn't get along with him - hazy.

    If I had a girl friend who attacked me she would not be around after. I would have ditched her and stayed with the band.
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    Thats love for you
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Looking at the Beatles, they were a 5 man band at one time: Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, Moore and Sutcliffe. They were doing tours and backing up the likes of Jonny Gentle who was big in those days in the UK, so they were moving in the top levels to be doing that. That was 1960.

    Then they go to Hamburg and play in dives. That was a come down indeed.

    BTW, Moore was at the Larry Parnes auditions. The Beatles unsuccessfully tried to persuade Tommy Moore to stay and go to Hamburg with them. That is when Pete Best came in.
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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post

    Then they go to Hamburg and play in dives. That was a come down indeed.

    .

    I think that is where they learned their trade. long nights playing for hours.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    I think that is where they learned their trade. long nights playing for hours.
    No doubt it honed it and they could experiment playing to people dancing who didn't know any difference, however backing Johnny Gentle in theatre tours I would say they were near enough there.
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    Member baloffski's Avatar
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    Looks like I have opened a lively debate here. I was going to do Pete Best as my next instalment; but think I should steer clear of anything even remotely Beatles related as I am running with the big dogs here!

    Thank you for all the kind words and standby for another piece when I can decide on a subject which will interest.

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    Hey your story was interesting.

    Go for it
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Get it factual, triple check facts. There is so much garbage written about the Beatles.

    For a few months after Tommy White, the Beatles had Norman Chapman as drummer. He was called up for National Service, one of the last as well, so another one who could have been a multi-millionaire. Another was the bass player, Chas Newby, who replaced Sutcliffe. He was at uni and wanted to complete his studies, despite the Beatles asking him to stay with them.
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    Senior Member lenka's Avatar
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    a year ago was smashing exhibition in victoria museum

    http://www.liv.ac.uk/vgm/art/sutcliffe.htm

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    Keeping It Real !!!!!!!!! ItsaZappathing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    I enjoyed reading that baloffski
    Me too even though am not the Beatles biggest fan.
    Good one Baloffski

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    Keeping It Real !!!!!!!!! ItsaZappathing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Get it factual, triple check facts. There is so much garbage written about the Beatles.

    For a few months after Tommy White, the Beatles had Norman Chapman as drummer. He was called up for National Service, one of the last as well, so another one who could have been a multi-millionaire. Another was the bass player, Chas Newby, who replaced Sutcliffe. He was at uni and wanted to complete his studies, despite the Beatles asking him to stay with them.
    More stuff I didn't know.
    Ta WW

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing View Post
    More stuff I didn't know.
    Ta WW
    Thought there was lots you never knew...

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    "Epstein then considered Johnny Hutchinson as the best replacement and contacted Hutchinson to offer him the job. Hutchinson turned him down ? he didn?t have a good opinion of the group."
    From: http://www.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat...etebest3.shtml

    I have read this story before, that Johnny Hutch was offered the job over Ringo and Ringo was second choice. Hutch played with the Beatles for 3 or 4 days between Pete Best's sacking and Ringo coming in. He was also a friend of Pete Best. Hutch was with the Big Three who were also managed by Epstein.

    Hutch created the Big Three, who created the distinctive Mersey Sound. Well it was loud using custom-made large amps and speakers made by a band member, Barber, who also made some for the Beatles. The Beatles knew Hutch, having previously stood-in for them. He was very firm in his ways and sound he wanted, doing what he wanted. Not a good team player and I doubt he would have added much value to the Beatles. The Big Three disbanded in 1963 over disagreements with Epstein.

    Casey Jones of The Big Three went to London forming a band and selected an unknown Eric Clapton to play with him.
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    Casey Jones - a steamin' and a rollin' - wasn't that Alan Hale Jnr
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    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Written by Bill Harry who founded the paper Merseybeat. So I would say pretty accurate, being around at the time and writing the paper. He would be right in the know also being personal friends of all the Beatles.

    http://www.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat...etebest3.shtml

    Harry once wrote to The Daily Mail, saying that "Liverpool is like New Orleans at the turn of the century, but with rock ?n? roll instead of jazz".

    Bill Harry was trying to get the media focused on what was happening in the city. The scene was so big it had its own paper.

    An excellent wiki on him here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Harry
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    Oh...so Wiki's ok now for Bill Harry and not George Martin, even though everything ut in both Wiki articles is sot on with references

    Yes, Bill Harry is great on the subject and even rubbishes Cynthia Lennon's more recent book (of her two) where she is less than factual about well known events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Oh...so Wiki's ok now for Bill Harry and not George Martin,
    Wiki is fine for an overview, that's all, what I said stands. Don't consider it much more than that.

    In his Merseybeat web site Harry's knowledge in inside matters must be respected, as he knew anything and everything that was going on. He says Epstein offered the drummers job to Tommy Hutch after sacking Best. That info must be respected, although Mersey Beat, which he edited, gave a sanitised version of events at the time. He counters what he published in Mersey Beat, which came officially from Epstein. If anyone would know it would be Harry. I know of no one that has asked Hutch yet. I'm sure he knows.

    His view on Liverpool as a port is way out, saying it had declined from the 1920-1950s, when the 1950s the port was at its height. Cunard and Canadian Pacific liners would crowd the Pier Head way into the 1960s, he thinks they disappeared about 10 years earlier.

    References in wikis don't mean too much. A ref could be to a poor book. One book says Lennon drove to Skegness to see Ringo to offer him the job. Ringo was telephoned by Epstein and Lennon.

    Harry counters much of the misinformation.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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