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Thread: Warships and Ships at war

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    Senior Member brian daley's Avatar
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    Default Warships and Ships at war

    I thought I would give the thread this title because it allows to post both Merchant and Naval ships ,of all nations and ages . I have put the whole page of this story,whgich is taken fromthe July 1940 edition of War Illustrated. In a page you are shown the British version of a page in history,the effects of which live with us still,
    BrianD


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    Senior Member brian daley's Avatar
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    Charles Pears painted many notable wartime scenes and here he is at his best. This is a painting of the hard fought "Pedestal" convoy to Malta.
    Fighters from HMS Victorious and HMS Indomitable engage enemy bombers whilst a barrage of flak is being thrown up,
    BrianD
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    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Great that Brian. Love them old warships.

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    Senior Member brian daley's Avatar
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    Refduelling at Sea, in the British Navy this was carried out by the ships of the Royal Fleet auxilliary,the seamen were all merchant navy and were not on "active service" but did one of the most crucial jobs in battle. Keeping those ship fed and fuelled. This picture is of an American fleet oiler,servicing two ships at the same time. It was ta
    ken by an official photographer; it was in the Pacific and the oiler was the Cohaba,
    BrianD
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Refduelling at Sea, in the British Navy this was carried out by the ships of the Royal Fleet auxilliary,the seamen were all merchant navy and were not on "active service" but did one of the most crucial jobs in battle. Keeping those ship fed and fuelled. This picture is of an American fleet oiler,servicing two ships at the same time. It was ta
    ken by an official photographer; it was in the Pacific and the oiler was the Cohaba,
    BrianD
    Nice one Brian. I always thought the RFA were RN guys. I'm sure they wear RN denims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Charles Pears painted many notable wartime scenes and here he is at his best. This is a painting of the hard fought "Pedestal" convoy to Malta.
    Fighters from HMS Victorious and HMS Indomitable engage enemy bombers whilst a barrage of flak is being thrown up,
    BrianD
    Is that the famous convoy that got through to Malta.

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    Captain Kong captain kong's Avatar
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    HMS Barham exploding 25 November 1941. hundreds of men cling to the hull when she explodes. Amazingly, 450 men survive.

    QUEEN ELIZABETH-Class Battleship ordered from John Brown at Clydebank after approval of design in June 1912. This ship was laid down on 24th February 1913 and launched on 31st December 1914. She was the third RN warship to bear this name, introduced in 1811 and last used for a cruiser in 1989 sold in 1914. The ship began service in October 1915 and had cost ?2,408,000, including the armament, communication equipment and other items of Admiralty supply. She was present at the Battle of Jutland in May 1916 and after extensive service during WW2 was sunk by a U-Boat torpedo in November 1941.For more information on design see BRITISH BATTLESHIPS by A Raven and J Roberts.
    24th - Took part with QUEEN ELIZABETH , VALIANT and screen of eight Fleet destroyers for provision of cover to cruisers of 7th and 15th Squadrons carrying out search for military convoys on passage to Benghazi (Operation ME7). (Note: cruisers were deployed as Force B ? See Naval Staff History).



    25th November 1941, - Under constant supervision by enemy aircraft. Under attack by U331 and hit by three torpedoes which struck between funnel and X turret on port side. Ship sank in position 32.34N 26.24N within 4 minutes after the magazine detonated. (On VALIANT, the closest ship to BARHAM when she was hit, was the Gaumont News cameraman John Turner who shot 2 minutes of movie film, all he had left in the camera, of the sinking. This film became one of the most poignant shot in the whole war)

    Only 450 survived from the complement of about 1312. (Casualty List - note on casualties)

    Note: At the subsequent Board of Inquiry it was suggested that the fires started caused the explosion of the 4in and 15in magazines. All internal communications failed and the speed of the development of a list made it impossible for many to escape. See above references and TUBAL CAIN by E Muspratt.)

    B a t t l e H o n o u r s

    JUTLAND 1916 - MATAPAN 1941 - CRETE 1941 - MEDITERRANEAN 1941

    SEE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss
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    Great that Brian. Often seen pictures of HMS Barham exploding. Amazing anyone survived.

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    Captain Kong captain kong's Avatar
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    Another great warship that seems to be forgotten these days in case we upset our european neighbours,
    HMS VICTORY.
    21 October, TRAFALGAR DAY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain kong View Post
    Another great warship that seems to be forgotten these days in case we upset our european neighbours,
    HMS VICTORY.
    21 October, TRAFALGAR DAY.
    Wow, great ship. Must have been horrendous to sail in her though. I'll bet it was very squalid below decks.

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    Captain Kong captain kong's Avatar
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    HMS Formidable
    1) 4 May 1945: Struck by a Zero carrying one 250 kg bomb which caused a 2 foot square hole and a 24 x 20 foot depression in the armored flight deck. Some structural damage was inflicted and three fragments penetrated the hanger deck with one going through a center boiler and into the double bottom. Speed was reduced to 18 knots and she was out of action for five hours. This attack killed eight men, wounded 51 and destroyed eleven aircraft.*
    2) 9 May 1945: Kamikaze strike into the after deck park killed one and wounded eight. Deck depressed 4.5 inches with a supporting beam distorted by 3 inches. Six Corsairs and one Avenger were destroyed on deck, and a blown out rivet allowed burning fuel to penetrate into the hanger, which together with the sprinkler system damaged a further eight Corsairs and three Avengers. Out of action for 25 minutes. Amazing how fast they recovered from that attack. 25 minutes.
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    Twenty five minutes, jeez, takes longer to make a brew.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain kong View Post
    HMS Formidable

    Amazing how fast they recovered from that attack. 25 minutes.
    The US carriers had wooden flight decks and would have been out for months.

    US and Japanese carriers had wood because of repairability. If they had an accident, or crash, they just pulled up the damaged or burnt wood and replaced it, apparently, with enough men, something they had plenty of, they could replace large areas quickly.

    However if the damage penetrated through the flight deck then the consequences to the hanger space underneath would be severe and then it was a dockyard job for repairs. Witness the frequency of time spent in dock by USN carriers after kamikaze hits. RN carriers took less damage from comparable hits and could resume operations sooner.

    The British crews mainly mixed quick drying concrete to flatten out dents in the flight deck after kamikaze attacks.

    A USN liaison officer on HMS Formidable off Okinawa was reported as saying "When a kamikaze hits a US carrier, it's six months repair in Pearl. In a Limey carrier, it's 'sweepers, man your brooms'.
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    So they repaired the decks with concrete. Was that special concrete or just ordinary stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo42 View Post
    So they repaired the decks with concrete. Was that special concrete or just ordinary stuff.
    It was developed for that application and was quick drying. The US had wooden decks which were also for topside lightness - a compromise. However they all adopted the UKs full armoured hangars and flight decks after WW2. I think the US Essex class were armoured decks towards the end of WW2.

    The US view was that if you had enough planes you could protect the carrier, so no need for heavy armour - it never worked. Their carriers were large and designed to operate in the vast Pacific, so their planes were forward attack planes. US carriers were supplied from Atolls. UK carriers were smaller and more armoured as they expected to operate near to shore within range of land bases enemy planes. They also had limited range as the expected at sea time was 10 days, as they would be always be near to a friendly port having such a vast empire. British carriers were not for attack, rather more support than anything else, until that doctrine was changed during WW2.

    The problem with armoured hangars was that it reduced aircraft capacity - hence larger, massive, expensive carriers post-war. The British Far East fleet carriers in 1945 ended up with 81 planes by storing them on decks and some overhanging the sea.

    The British perfected the carrier and developed just about everything in carrier systems in its evolution:
    • the first purpose built carrier
    • armoured flight decks
    • angled flight decks,
    • the ski-jump deck,
    • the steam catapult
    • practical vertical take-off jet aircraft - the Harrier.
    • mirror landing systems
    • the first through decks
    • hurricane bows.


    ..and a few more I haven't thought of.
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    Aren't the Brits building a carrier as we speak.

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    Though in awe of warships and fully appreciate their necessity, as an ex-seaman my awe is tempered by my awareness that part of their role was to send other ships to the sea bed, with the resultant loss of life of other sailors.

    But I guess that is true of all weapons of war - this just affects me differently because it's sailors involved. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, having recently spoken to the widow of a sailor who lost his life on a convoy to Murmansk.

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    HMS Victorious was loaned to the US, after a request from the US, as they were desperate for carriers having lost a number and a few in dock, and renamed USS Robin flying the US flag. The British crew remained. She served in the south Pacific with Saratoga, and was later returned and named back into HMS Victorious. She later returned to the Pacific in 1945 with the British carrier fleet against Japan.

    Victorious (USS Robin) operated 60 British and American Wildcat fighters. British owned planes repainted in US colours with British pilots. Victorious was named USS Robin so the Japs would not think the US was short of carriers and painted in measure 21 (5-N Navy Blue).

    The crew remained with a different uniform, and with US additions. The planes were British and US owned, all in US markings, with the US planes having US pilots and the British, British pilots.

    They developed a method of hanging the planes virtually over the sides, with the main wheels on deck and the tail wheels stretched out over the sea.

    http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Victorious.html
    http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.17844
    "Send Her Victorious" (ISBN: 0718301021) by Michael Apps.

    They even changed the uniforms of the crew to US. Search on Robin on this page http://www.cheshiremagazine.com/issu...esqueries.html

    They also fitted ice cream and Coca Cola machines on board. Most Brits at the time probably had never heard of Coca Cola, as that only came into the UK post WW2 in any big way.


    Combined U.S.N. Battle Group of HMS Victorious (foreground) renamed as USS Robin and USS Saratoga, at Noumea, New Caledonia, 1943
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Though in awe of warships and fully appreciate their necessity, as an ex-seaman my awe is tempered by my awareness that part of their role was to send other ships to the sea bed, with the resultant loss of life of other sailors.

    But I guess that is true of all weapons of war - this just affects me differently because it's sailors involved. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, having recently spoken to the widow of a sailor who lost his life on a convoy to Murmansk.
    Yes, terrible business. Especially as they can't run away or hide. Until war stops, this is the result.

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    Great stuff WW. More stuff I never knew. You sailor boys know your stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo42 View Post
    Aren't the Brits building a carrier as we speak.
    Yep. It was to be three of the Queen Elizabeth class. Dropped to two and maybe just one. It is the size of the US Independence class. The biggest carriers the UK would have built. Part of it is being made at Birkenhead.

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    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Yep. It was to be three of the Queen Elizabeth class. Dropped to two and maybe just one. It is the size of a the US Independence class. The biggest carriers the UK would have built. Part of it is being made at Birkenhead.

    WOW! Fantastic. Gotta be heavy in protection though. Gonna be costly with support and goalkeeper protection ships.

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    Waterways,I have my uncles navy record plus a chart showing the Victorious just outside Tokyo,before it entered service it went to the US to be fitted out with among other things coke machines and ice cream equipment,Ive often wondered if the british on board were awarded a campaign medal from the US as they were awarded one from the Russians on the Baltic run.

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    Here is a picture that I would like to se the original of. It is the Frenc battleship "Richelieu" which was sunk in Dakar by the British in early hours of July 8th 1940. This was shown in that report/The Richelieu was laid down in1935 and was only completed at the beginning of WW11.We know she was 35.000 tons ,carried 8 15 inch guns,15 6 inch guns 18 anti aircraft guns.
    The War Illustrated stated,there were no technical details or photographs available at that time. (1940) She was sunk to prevent the Vichy French turning her over to the Nazis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Here is a picture that I would like to se the original of. It is the Frenc battleship "Richelieu" which was sunk in Dakar by the British in early hours of July 8th 1940. This was shown in that report/The Richelieu was laid down in1935 and was only completed at the beginning of WW11.We know she was 35.000 tons ,carried 8 15 inch guns,15 6 inch guns 18 anti aircraft guns.
    The War Illustrated stated,there were no technical details or photographs available at that time. (1940) She was sunk to prevent the Vichy French turning her over to the Nazis.
    Great that Brian. Wasn't most of the French fleet sunk at Oraz???. The French Army also fought back in Syria. The British General said that if they fought that hard against the Germans, they wouldn't have lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Here is a picture that I would like to se the original of. It is the Frenc battleship "Richelieu" which was sunk in Dakar by the British in early hours of July 8th 1940.
    Brian,

    I think you got that wrong.

    Here she is in 1946


    Dakar 1940: Vichy French: 1 destroyer sunk, 2 submarines sunk.
    HMS Barham hit by a 380 mm (15 in) shell from Richelieu.
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    Senior Member brian daley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Brian,

    I think you got that wrong.

    Here she is in 1946


    Dakar 1940: Vichy French: 1 destroyer sunk, 2 submarines sunk.
    HMS Barham hit by a 380 mm (15 in) shell from Richelieu.
    Waterways, I culled that article direct from a wartime magazine,War Illustrated July19th 1940,it is what is known as propaganda. Hindsight has shown that she was only damaged. The people of great Britain were told different at the time.
    BrianD

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Waterways, I culled that article direct from a wartime magazine,War Illustrated July19th 1940,it is what is known as propaganda. Hindsight has shown that she was only damaged. The people of great Britain were told different at the time.
    BrianD
    No change there then with propoganda. Thanks Brian.

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    "Operation Pedestal was a British Wartime convoy
    Great Britain is an island lying to the northwest of Continental Europe. It is the List of islands by area, and the largest in Europe. With a population of 58.9 million people it is List of islands by population....
    operation to get desperately needed supplies to the island of MaltaMalta
    Malta , officially the Republic of Malta , is a densely populated developed country European microstates microstate in the European Union....
    in August 1942, during the Second World WarWorld War II
    World War II, or the Second World War , was a global military conflict which involved a Participants in World War II, including all of the great powers, organised into two opposing military alliances: the Allies of World War II and the Axis powers....
    . Malta was the base from which surface ships, submarines and aircraft attacked AxisAxis Powers
    The Axis powers were those countries that were opposed to the Allies of World War II during World War II. The three major Axis powers - Nazi Germany, Kingdom of Italy , and Empire of Japan - were part of a military alliance on the signing of the Tripartite Pact in September 1940, which officially founded the Axis powers....
    convoys carrying essential supplies to the Italian and German armies in North Africa. In 1941 and 1942, Malta was effectively under siegeSiege of Malta (1940)
    The Siege of Malta was a military campaign in the Mediterranean Theatre of World War II of World War II. From 1940 to 1942, the fight for the control of the strategically important island of Malta pitted the air forces and navies of Kingdom of Italy and Nazi Germany against the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy....
    , blockaded by Axis air and naval forces. To sustain Malta, Britain had to get convoys through at all costs. Malta narrowly survived. Despite serious losses, just enough supplies were delivered for Malta to survive, although it ceased to be an effective offensive base for much of 1942. The most crucial supply was fuel delivered by the American-built tanker with a British crewOhioSS Ohio
    The SS Ohio was an oil tanker built for the Texas Oil Company ; she was the largest oil tanker in the world at the time of construction. The tanker was launched on April 20, 1940 at the Sun Shipbuilding Yard in Chester, Pennsylvania, USA....
    . The operation started on 9 August 1942, when the convoy sailed through the Strait of GibraltarStrait of Gibraltar
    The Strait of Gibraltar is the strait that connects the Atlantic Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea and separates Spain from Morocco. The name comes from Gibraltar, which in turn originates from the Arabic language Jebel Tariq meaning mountain of Tariq....
    .

    The convoy is also known as the "Battle of Mid-August" in Italy and as the "Konvoj ta' Santa Marija" in Malta. The arrival of the last ships of the convoy on August 15 1942 coincided with the Feast of the Assumption (Santa Marija) and the name "Santa Marija Convoy" or "Sta Marija Convoy" is still used. That day's public holiday and celebrations, in part, celebrate the arrival of the convoy. The attempt to run some fifty ships past bombers, E-boatE-boat
    The Schnellboot or S-boot was a type of Germany torpedo boat that saw service during World War II. The S-boote were approximately twice as large as their PT boat and Motor Torpedo Boat counterparts, were better suited for the open sea, and had a substantially longer range, at approximately 700 nautical miles....
    s, minefields, and submarines has gone down in military history as one of the most important British strategic victories of the Second World War - though at a cost of more than four hundred lives, with only five of the original fourteen merchant ships reaching the Grand HarbourGrand Harbour
    Grand Harbour is a natural harbour on the island of Malta. It has been used as a harbour since at least Phoenician times. The natural harbour has been greatly improved with extensive Dock and wharves, and has been massively fortified...."

    .My thanks to the people of the Astrology Encyclopaediae,
    BrianD

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    Thanks for that Brian. I have a picture at home with the Ohio coming into Valletta.

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